Doors of Night - Effect vs Card

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Doors of Night - Effect vs Card

Post by Konrad Klar »

Question is so subtle like whether disappearing of Doors of Night effect in play is the same as leaving a play by Doors of Night.
Or whether discarding Doors of Night may be considered as leaving a play while effect of presence of Doors of Night is still in play.

But
Will of Sauron will keep Peril Returned in play as a permanent event.
is not acme of precision.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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the JabberwocK
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Re: Doors of Night - Effect vs Card

Post by the JabberwocK »

As an aside, I find this CRF entry quite interesting:
CRF: WILL OF SAURON
"Long-events are only discarded if Will of Sauron ceases to be in play, not if one particular card leaves play."
In my opinion, this is very telling of I.C.E.'s intentions and I would expect Doors of Night leaving play to be interpreted in a similar fashion, despite no clarification being issued.

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CDavis7M
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Re: Doors of Night - Effect vs Card

Post by CDavis7M »

A beginner here who is still intrigued by Will of Sauron and simple roadblock strategies. But also a person who defines technical statements and argues wording and rules interpretation for a living. Just throwing in my 2 cents since this interest me.

Even as a fan of the Will of Sauron, I believe that The Will of Sauron is discarded if Gates of Morning enters play, degrading the Effect of Perils Returned (though not when 2 copies of Perils Returned are in play), regardless of whether a Doors of Night card is in play and is discarded or not. Of course,if just Doors is in play and discarded, The Will of Sauron would be discarded.

Examples:

The Will of Sauron will be discarded if the the Effect of Peril returned is degraded to it's first clause (eg the Doors Effect leaves play and Gates is considered to not be in play, which happens if Gates comes into play with Peril Returned,or if one copy of Peril Returned is discarded and a second copy remains with Gates in play).

The Will of Sauron is discarded if Peril Returned is discarded (eg by Marvels Told).

The Will of Sauron is not discarded when Doors of Night CARD leaves play while the Peril Returned Doors EFFECT is still in play. And Doors would not be discarded if Peril Returned EFFECT was discarded while the Doors CARD is in play.

The argument about the Card vs Effect seems nonsensical given the poor lexicography of this game. Apparently an earlier vote agreed to have Will of Sauron be discarded if the effect of Doors leaves play. I agree as above. Though I still don't see the need for a Card vs Effect argument as it seems to me that they are one the same here ( it would still be possible to have Doors And Peril in play at once despite "cannot be duplicated" as Perils is not Doors). The definitions and wording in this game are just not well constructed enough to require such strict interpretation. Though i am interested in the other situations where this Card vs Effect argument would apply.

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Doors of Night - Effect vs Card

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:13 pm
Though i am interested in the other situations where this Card vs Effect argument would apply.
Echo of all Joy.

Echo of all Joy is discarded when Doors of Night comes into play.
Resolving a Doors of Night card obviously counts as a coming Doors of Night into play.
Resolving Peril Returned (with absence of Gates of Morning in play) causes that Doors of Night effect appears in play.

First case is not interesting much. Doors of Night card, when resolves, comes into play and Echo of all Joy discards itself.
Second case is more interesting. Echo of all Joy reacts on coming the Doors of Night into play, not on presence.
Bandobras Took wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 8:42 pm
Correct. This doesn't cause Doors of Night to leave play; it just causes Doors to no longer be considered to be in play.
So if to consider that "ceasing to be in play" and "leaving a play" are different things, then "starting to be in play" and "coming into play" are also different things. Consistently.

Echo of all Joy would be immune on situation when Peril Returned is in play and Gates of Morning (card) is discarded.
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Re: Doors of Night - Effect vs Card

Post by Bandobras Took »

That makes sense to me, yes.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Re: Doors of Night - Effect vs Card

Post by CDavis7M »

I think a lot of game design can be deciphered by considering the disparity between (1) a careful and technical wording that enables a first effect and (2) the wording of the card itself. Compared to (2) and (3) a careful and technical wording that enables a second effect.

Far too much contorting would be required to make it clear that Echo of Joy can work with a Perils Returned to enable the Doors effect without discarding Echo. Mostly at fault is the wording of Perils and "put into play" vs "in effect" interpretation with respect to that card. Which I think is convoluted and unnecessary given that "arriving" is a necessary and inherent condition of being "present".

Also odd that Will of Sauron would be restricted while Echo would be made more resilient.

Anyway, thank you for providing the current rulings. Lots of opportunity to think with this game.



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Re: Doors of Night - Effect vs Card

Post by CDavis7M »

NOTE - THIS THREAD IS FROM 2018

You all voted 48 YES to just 4 NO.

I'm just here to bring up a relevant official ruling that appears to have been overlooked. Good news, the votes are ICE approved. It is the game state that matters, not whether a particular card left play. I wonder who voted NO.


The consequences of the YES vote:
CONSEQUENCES OF YOUR VOTE:
If you vote YES, then you are in favor of Shelob and The Will of Sauron being discarded only when the Doors of Night effect ceases to be in play. This means that if the Doors of Night card is discarded but the Doors of Night effect remains (ie. Peril Returned in play or a second copy of Doors of Night card resolves) then Shelob and The Will of Sauron will remain in play. Therefore Shelob and The Will of Sauron will only be discarded when all sources creating the Doors of Night effect cease to be in play.
The official ruling from ICE Digest 97
From: Martin Toggweiler <mtogg...@compuserve.com>
>>>7) *Will of Sauron* is in play. During the m/h phase Marvels Told is
>>>targetted against it, in response another Will of Sauron is played.
>(legal because the first WoS is targeted for discard, right?)
>>> When the initial Will of Sauron is discarded do all hazard long-events
>get
>>>discarded (including the second WoS) with it even though the second Will
>of
>>>Sauron is in play?
>
>>No.
>
>I realize the second WoS would not be discarded since WoS is a
>permanent-event, (initially I was thinking it was a long-event), but why
>wouldn't all long-events be discarded along with the first WoS, since by
>its text "when this card is discarded, all hazard long-events are
>discarded" ?
It's just like Doors of Night. It's not the discard of a particular
card that discards other cards, it's the change in the game state
from Will of Sauron to not WoS.
So this doesn't only apply to Doors but it applies to other cards as well. Neat. If I see the other rulings on game state I'll post back.

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