Re: Smoke Rings & Weigh All Things to a Nicety
Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:56 am
MECCG Discussion Forum
https://www.councilofelrond.org/forum/
https://www.councilofelrond.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=143&t=3350
I agree.Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:56 amMinimum one hazard must be moved from sideboard, or discard pile to play deck. If Doors of Night is in play then additional hazard may be so moved.
The hazards are not specified at declaration of Unexpected Outpost.
No.
Moving of 1 hazard card from sideboard, or discard pile to play deck. Optionally moving an additional hazard card from sideboard or discard pile to play deck if Doors of Night is in play.
None.
None.
Target of action is either known (and specified) at declaration or it does not exist.
I see. Nothing is specified at declaration of the action. In such case there is also no target of the action.
If the choise is part of main effect it is not known at declaration.
Having a target and not specifing it at declaration of action mutually preclude each other. If anything is specified, but not at declaration of an action (e.g. it is chosen as part of main effect) it is not a target of the action.
Ok. So we disagree on whether the action of moving the card (e.g., in Smoke Rings, Outpost, etc) targets the card or not.Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:06 pm Target of action is either known (and specified) at declaration or it does not exist.
Nothing is specified at declaration of the action. In such case there is also no target of the action.
See Doors of Night, Gates of Morning, Dark Tryst.
Having a target and not specifing it at declaration of action mutually preclude each other. If anything is specified, but not at declaration of an action (e.g. it is chosen as part of main effect) it is not a target of the action.
First, Annotation 8 is a rule describing active conditions of actions. Each of Annotations 5-8 are in a section describing active conditions of actions and labeled "Actions and Active and Passive Conditions". Annotations 5-8 are NOT rules describing targets of actions. Instead, Annotations 1-4 ARE the rules describing the targets of actions. These annotations are in a different section of the Rule Annotations labeled "Targets." There is nothing in the Rules Annotations to suggest that the rules on Active Conditions override the rules on Targeting. The Rules Annotations state: "An action that is played out through one or more specific entities as stated on a card or in the rules is considered to "target" the entities." The action of moving of a particular card from your discard pile to your play deck is played out through that particular card, and therefore the card moved by Unexpected Outpost is a target of the card.Annotation 8: An action that requires a target is considered to have the active condition that the target be in play when the action is declared and when it is resolved. An action may not be declared if its target is not in play. However, dice-rolling actions may always be targeted by other actions declared later in the same chain of effects.
There is nothing in the Annotations on Active Conditions to suggest that they override this fundamental rule. Therefore, when Unexpected Outpost resolves, and the player searches their discard pile, chooses a particular hazard card, and moves the chosen hazard card to their play deck, the moving-to-play-deck-action is played out through the hazard card, making the hazard card a "target" of the moving action by the definition of "target."MELE p. 91 wrote:Targeting: Choosing a specific entity through which a card or effect will be played out. An entity chosen as such is the "target" of the action."
These cards include actions that have targets.Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:06 pmI see. Nothing is specified at declaration of the action. In such case there is also no target of the action.
See Doors of Night, Gates of Morning, Dark Tryst.