[Virtual Suggestion] Darkness Under Tree and awakened plants

[Jambo]

1º- UO/MoS (to keep recycling darkness under tree/ IDBT)
2º- Darkness under tree
2º- a) opponent respond with marvels/ voices
3º- i play IDBT
4º- i play AP
4º- a) Opponent cancels/ reduces limit
5º- How am i supposed to do sb if i used my UO/MoS to make my AP worth the try?

If the above happened then it wouldn't make any difference on the cards you were using - 3 different ones or 1 combined. If your opponent is armed with an array of MT/VoM, cancellers and/or HL reducers, then not much is going to get through, period, irrespective of the hazard strategy. If your trying to beat MT/cancellers/HL reducers with a single wilderness creature strategy then it would be most unfair!

DUT is the key card, and you have access to 3 in any deck. One of these will get through and when it does Huorns are easily playable, OMWs less so. Irrespective of the cards, the minimum HL you'd need is 2. One to play DUT, one to play an AP. If you have Radagast, then that might increase to 3, unless he's already in play of course. Chances are he'll just get MT/VoM anyway. If Radagast in at the bottom of the pile then the version of DUT I'm proposing wins hands down (see this + OMW for instance!). You have 3 cards out of 30 hazards to recycle APs, as opposed to 1 unique card. Moreover, if you or your opponent is using Radagast - bye bye recycler. If the Huorn dies, there's also nothng to recycle, but then maybe one should be having to rely on Old Man Willow for a more serious threat (being a double ww)...

[marcos]

radagast can also be taken with uvatha, or returned beyond all hope if opponent marvels him. DUT just MoS or UO...

if you or your opponent is using Radagast - bye bye recycler

do you run elrond if you play elf lords? No, because you want to use Master of the house's recycle ability. Just build a deck with some other wizard or do minion or balrog. Not all decks are good vs all decks, you have to know how to build it and vs what to build it, period...

you thought about this:

Here is a contradiction:

[v] Darkness Under Tree
Hazard long-event
All Awakened Plant attacks receive +2 prowess, +1 attack and attacker chooses defending characters; all Awakened Plant creature attacks with no body have 5 body.
At the end of each turn, each player may take one Awakened Plant hazard creature from his discard pile and shuffle it into his play deck. If Doors of Night is in play, the Awakened Plant hazard creature may be taken from discard pile to hand. Cannot be duplicated.

Awakened Plant. One strike (detainment against covert and hero companies). If Doors of Night is not in play, may also be played keyed to Shadow-lands.

bolds are mine

best!
Marcos

[Bandobras Took]

Hi Marcos,

I don't really follow the logic here. You say you don't want to use all your hazard limit to make one AP worth playing, yet you also don't want to combine the effects of 3 cards into 1?! Wouldn't 3 cards into 1 make it a more usable strategy?

The logic is simple. If I have only 3 cards to boost my hazard strategy in the whole deck, my opponent simply holds his Voices -- he knows that's what he's got to wait for. And while you're trying desperately to draw the booster in question, your creature attacks are going to spend their time completely sucking and getting eliminated.

You want 2 different moderate boosters and one good unique one so that:

1) You can enhance your attacks a little from the start;
2) You can't be completely knocked out by Marvels/Voices; and
3) Your creatures don't die before you can use them.

For example, a good Orc Strategy will have Minions Stir -- but also the advantage of creatures that self-enhance in the Lieutenant cards. You'll also potentially see Scimitars from Nazgul and possibly some Two or Three Tribes/Buth/Uma. For any creature strategy you want a lot more than one enhancer that paints itself as a big target for your opponent's perm cancelers.

[marcos]

clap clap clap!!!

i couldn't say it better

[marcos]

the only modification i would do to the already suggested AP cards is to lower Huorn's prowess by 1... Rest are ok IMHO. What do you guys think?

[Jambo]

Wait a minute. You're trying to tell me this works better only because of the [v] version of Radagast the Tamer working alongside Darkness Under Tree?

do you run elrond if you play elf lords? No, because you want to use Master of the house's recycle ability. Just build a deck with some other wizard or do minion or balrog. Not all decks are good vs all decks, you have to know how to build it and vs what to build it, period...

I wasn't meaning if you're using Radagast. Radagast's a popular wizard, so chances are when you're playing against hero or FW, your Radagast the Tamer is going to do diddly-squat! Or is this strategy intended for vs minion only?

With 9 available creatures (3 of which are Ents and detainment against hero/covert), it might be perceived that this strategy is more of an add-on strategy and not something to base an entire deck around.

[marcos]

Wait a minute. You're trying to tell me this works better only because of the [v] version of Radagast the Tamer working alongside Darkness Under Tree?

yes

With 9 available creatures (3 of which are Ents and detainment against hero/covert), it might be perceived that this strategy is more of an add-on strategy and not something to base an entire deck around.

what do you think about orc lieutenants? just 6 creatures and an entire deck that is highly competitive based on that ones, is it an add-on strat?

[Bandobras Took]

I wasn't meaning if you're using Radagast. Radagast's a popular wizard, so chances are when you're playing against hero or FW, your Radagast the Tamer is going to do diddly-squat! Or is this strategy intended for vs minion only?

It will be a bit more effective vs minion, but:

Where does hero Radagast move?
Barring Cheezagast, where are the popular allies for FW Radagast?

Radagast might be one of the more vulnerable to Awakened Plants, counterbalancing his ruling out a hazard helper.

[marcos]

also count that heroes plays Pallando/cirdan cheeze squat moreoften than Radagast... I think that Pallando is the most used Hero wizard

[Bandobras Took]

I'd like to register my approval for the 3 separate cards Marcos suggested:

Nature' Revenge
Darkness Under Tree
Radagast the Tamer.

That allows you your 9 Awakened Plant Creatures and 11 support cards. You have 3 other creature slots (minimum) and 7 other hazard slots (to do with as you will). That seems like a good mix for me, since Huorns will be easily keyable and the others will be harder-hitting.

[marcos]

i don't know if nature's revenge is ok, maybe it needs some more work, but thanks for your approval. But, ben, what do you think about my suggested huorn being like this:

[v] Huorn:
[w]
P/B: 10/-
Creature
Awakened Plant. One strike, attacker chooses defending characters. May also be played at Druadan Forest, Old Forest, and Wellinghall. May also be played keyed to Heart of Mirkwood, Sothern Mirkwood, Western Mirkwood, and Woodland Realm; and may also be played at Ruins & Lairs [R] and Shadow-holds [S] in these regions. Any Awakened plant hazard creature can be played on a company that has faced Huorn this turn.

Same as the current suggestion but 1 less prowess...

[Bandobras Took]

I prefer any sites in the keyable regions. I want to be able to hit Thranduil's Halls and Woodmen-Town as necessary.

[marcos]

let's continue this discussion on the huorn V1 topic

[Frodo]

Man, you guys have been doing a lot of discussing!

Ok, to summarize the awakened plants discussion: people want 1 prow booster, 1 recycler, and 1 other enhancer. Also, a new Huorn. Is that correct? Here are my thoughts:

HUORN: Whatever the majority decides for Huorn is fine with me. However, there *must* be some reason for a player to choose to use the original Huorn. I don’t mind if the virtual version is better in almost every respect, but there must be some tiny area that the original has which the new version does not. In this manner we are never really making obsolete the original cards.

RADAGAST: I am fine with Radagast. I was, at first, wondering if his ability to cycle wolves and animals is too strong, given that there’s already a Spawn that lets you attack twice with wolves and animals, though admittedly this isn’t very powerful in and of itself and I like this combination. The main problem is that it might encourage the play of Wolves and Animals over the awakened plants. Or do people think this is not a problem, given the other awakened plant enhancers?

DARKNESS UNDER TREE and NATURE’S REVENGE: Currently these cards read:
Darkness Under Tree
Long event. All awakened plant recive +2 prowess and 1 extra attack. All attacks from any awakened plant with no body receive +4 body. A character can be tapped to cancel one of these attacks. Cannot be duplicated.


Natures Revenge V [2 MP] - short event
Playable on an eliminated awakened plant hazard creature in your opponent's MP pile or a trophy. If Awakened Plant can attack, bring it into play as a creature that attacks immediately (not counting against the hazard limit). The attack receives +1 prowess and +1 strike and chooses defending characters. If the creature is defeated place this card in opponent's MP pile and he receives 2 MPs.

[Notes on nature: As it is worded, the opponent would also get the normal kill points. I assume this is fine.]

I like the general idea of these cards, however, I am longing for some of the more creative options that were suggested as well. There were two in particular, and here they are again, slightly edited by myself:

Waiting Shadow V - permanent event
MP: 2
All awakened plant attacks are non-detainment against minion and fallen-wizard companies. When an awakened plant attack is defeated, tap this card. When tapped, all awakened plant attacks gain +2 prowess and +2 strikes. If an awakened plant attack is defeated while this card is tapped, place this card in opponent’s marshalling point pile. Cannot be duplicated.

I really like this card because it reflects the main theme behind the Ents idea of combat: they must be “awakened” to anger. And why not go with theme when possible, rather than making simple prowess boosters? If we think it’s necessary, we can make this card affect only minions and FWs rather than heroes. However, I think this card’s title should be changed to “nature’s revenge” because of thematic anger in this card’s image.

Darkness under Tree V:
Any (ent or) awakened plant creature may be played keyed to a region or adjacent region (non dark-domain, non coastal sea) where an ent-ally is present or an ent-faction was played.

I also like this one since it’s unusual. Theme-wise, one thinks of Merry and Pippin “leading” the ents to Isengard to battle. However, I think the card title should be “Waiting Shadow” since this card’s image shows a tree-arm reaching out, which suggests the text of this card at least symbolically.

I do think that this many cards devoted to Ents is probably too much. I would suggest eliminating the current Nature’s Revenge. This would bring us to four interesting and varied enhancers (one of which is unique) plus one new Huorn.

Thoughts?
Frodo

[marcos]

actually, these aren't the Nature's revenge suggested by me and waiting shadow suggested by Jambo.

Re Huorn: The normal one sucks, why would a player ever play it? that is why we made a new one

Re Radagast: I think it is not a problem given the other plant enhacers. Also, my idea was to encourage wolves and animlas too a bit more

Re Darknes under Tree/ Nature's revenge/ Waiting Shadow:

The versions i like most are the suggested by Jambo and me, wich are:

Long event. All awakened plant recive +2 prowess and 1 extra attack. All attacks from any awakened plant with no body receive +4 body. A character can be tapped to cancel one of these attacks. Cannot be duplicated.

Permanent event
Playable on a non-Wizard, non-Ringwraith character facing a strike from an Awakened Plant that is keyed to a site. The strike receives +2 prowess. If the strike is defeated, discard this card. If the strike is not defeated, place creature's card with Waiting Shadow - creature is considered off to the side. The target character may not move to another site while this card is in play and the target character's company faces an attack from the creature at the start of each movement/hazard phase. Discard associated creature's card if Waiting Shadow is discarded. Discard Waiting Shadow if attached Awakened Plant is defeated.

the first one is a basic enhacer that pumps plants a bit, the second one is a helper that also has a quote of thematic, like jamie said in his post

Natures Revenge V [2 MP] - short event
Playable on an eliminated awakened plant hazard creature in your opponent's MP pile or a trophy. If Awakened Plant can attack, bring it into play as a creature that attacks immediately (not counting against the hazard limit). The attack receives +1 prowess and +1 strike and chooses defending characters. If the creature is defeated place this card in opponent's MP pile and he receives 2 MPs.

i can't understand the logic or theme behind this nature's revenge...

Waiting Shadow V - permanent event
MP: 2
All awakened plant attacks are non-detainment against minion and fallen-wizard companies. When an awakened plant attack is defeated, tap this card. When tapped, all awakened plant attacks gain +2 prowess and +2 strikes. If an awakened plant attack is defeated while this card is tapped, place this card in opponent’s marshalling point pile. Cannot be duplicated.

this one is cool and will fit perfect with nature's revenge as Joe said, but i'm affraid of giving trees too many helpers before give something to fight them with, like my new fair travel in wilderness
i would leave this new "nature's revenge" and "fair travels" for set 2, and test huorn, waiting shadow, radagast and darkness under tree at the upcoming virtual tourney to see what happen with them

:
short event
Look in your discard pile for an Awakened plant creature and put it into your hand, this creature must be keyable to current company's site path. Alternatively, look in your discard pile and shuffle an awekened plant creature into your play deck.
Additionaly, all awakened plant attacks keyed to heart of mirkwood, woodland realm, southern mirkwood, western mirkwood or by by type or name to a attacks normally not as detainment for the rest of the turn

this one might be too powerfull and maybe unnecesary if we do Radagast...

I do think that this many cards devoted to Ents is probably too much. I would suggest eliminating the current Nature’s Revenge. This would bring us to four interesting and varied enhancers (one of which is unique) plus one new Huorn.

completely agree with this, but as i said before, i prefer jamie's waiting shadow, it has thematic