[V Card Suggestion] The Great Goblin

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Leon wrote:
This is what virtualizing cards is about, improving a weak card to enhance a weak strategy.
Ahum, don't know which game you've been playing, but orcs are very very strong, I'd say the best coherent hazard strategy around actually (because of keyability). The number of times I've squashed or been wiped out by orc/uruk lieutenants, with two or three tribes, been sniffled by an orc scout...
But true, the Great Goblin was only in the deck for fun, if it was at all, so improvement is needed.

Adding strike is big, even to orcs that generally have many strikes, but it makes the lieutenant viable without minion stirr, and that's big. Playtesting will proove if it's too big. It's now modelled on Spider rather than FoF, which is suitable indeed for a unique creature and I prefer strikes to prowess, however keep in mind that the playability of spiders is much smaller....

I did like Jambo's suggestion of the orcs tracking a company down, but I suppose he meant a company moving from Goblin Gate (or the under grottos?), not just having visited the place some time during the game and anywhere over the map.

As I understand it, the bonus still works for himself when attacking in Anduin Vales/Rhudaur, with DoN...
I think, that if it's a creature that creates an attack, you should be able to kill it. So, along Balrog lines, you should be able to go to Goblin Gate and kill it. Otherwise there is no way to remove it, only marvels which is a bore. It doesn't get discarded when you cycle, nor when you defeat an attack...so this would counterbalance the use a bit. It's unique, but with Uvatha/Mouth you can get it back easily after all. Having to battle 3x minion stirr and this card is Too Much to Marvel.

"if played as a permanent event, any non-unique orc creature can be keyed to High Pass, Goblin Gate or the Under -grottos. With Doors of Night in play, any non unique orc hazard can be played keyed to Anduin Vales or sites therein."

I think an ability in stead of the general +1 strike along this line could be cool as well, maybe less powerful but thematically cool and usefull too. This way you keep it a bit more thematic, Great Goblin is a local warlord, not a general source of malice.

Play orc-guard on a company moving to Eagles Eyrie from Lorien, for example. Could also be extended with wolf-warg creature, though not many use this combination and they can usually be keyed anyway.

Other option: "any orc-hazard played keyed to ...doesn't count against the hazard limit."
Granted, Umi/Bumi and 2or3 tribes does the same, but it could still be useful, Anduin Vales is probably the most frequented region on the map, so that's no minor feat, and you don't need to hold on to those cards.

Not sure if sending the orcs to Rhudaur is a bridge too far, the Elves wouldn't suffer it and our Goblin is no Witch-King.
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.
Leon
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It is always possible to exclude the Orc and Uruk Lieutenants from the cards. I think the weaker orcs could use an extra strike, though the Lts hardly need it. I would not worry about removing chances yet. I never heard too much complaint abouth Spider of the Morla. (except that one game that we did not know yet that those 2x10 are detainment vs minion)
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Nerdmeetsyou
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maybe you just give a prowles bonus???

this would make the weaker orks more playable....

or you would make him affect only Orcs that are playalbe at a special region symbol or site... (I don't mean if played on that symbol... I truly mean those who would be...)
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Thorsten the Traveller
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Well, Spider o'Morlat is always the first one to get Marvelled, because FoFaR you can remove by defeating the attack, and WoW is only a long-event. Don't want to have giant spiders 3 strikes...
But orcs have scimitars also that give permanent prowess bonus, the more perms you create, the more Marvels you need. And anyway, what's wrong with going there and trying to kill the beast, I always thought it a pity you can't venture out to kill Spider or Shelob, you can kill Dragons, and for 5 MP you can kill a Balrog singlehandedly, but not so with Spiders :cry:

So, if the Goblin's there in his lair, he better beware!
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.
Leon
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I am planning to built some decks using virtual cards and I will try this as well with the weak orcs. for the moment I will exclude orc and uruk lt from the effect, since they are already strong. I have never played with or against a deck with Orc-warband, -warriors etc except for the challenge decks, so I do think they can use the extra power. I will post some result some time, but that could take some while since I am not near my cards for the next months.
Jambo
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I'm thinking it would be better and more balanced for this card to instill a prowess boost to orcs rather than a strike. Orc Warriors, Patrol, Warband, etc, really suffer from low prowess more than a lack of strikes per sé and I think the extra strike could be imbalanced when combined with the Uruk or Orc Lieutenants.
sly southerner
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I agree with Jambo. Same as last version but change strike to prowess. Nice idea to all concerned!
Ringbearer
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Agree here too. I know that Orc Lt and Minions Stir can be nasty to start with, and on top of that a GG strike. Maybe indeed prowess is what orcs need.
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Jambo
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Ok, I see two options for replacing the strike with a prowess boost:

+2 prowess and The Great Goblin is also discarded when any Orc attack is defeated.

+1 prowess, otherwise card as before.

Thoughts?
Ringbearer
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How about a +2 for all orc creature attacks. I mean, excluding automatics, since they get quite the boost from redoubled force.
"I used to roll the dice, feel the fear in my enemies eyes."
- Coldplay, Viva la Vida.

Gaming is life, the rest is just dice rolls.
- John Kovalic, Dork Tower
Leon
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How about +1 strike and +1 prowess to all orc creatures except orc- and uruk lieutenant? I like the idea to exclude automatic attacks, they already have that extreme booster Redoubled Force. If it is too strong a Doors of Night requirement can be added. Wolves have Wake of War and Shelob as main boosters, this card gives orcs a similar chance.
Redoubled Force
hazard
Permanent-event
All Orc and Troll automatic-attacks receive +3 strikes and +2 prowess. Discard this card when such an automatic-attack is defeated. Cannot be duplicated
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Nerdmeetsyou
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I like the +2 prowles more... because we don't have to work with exceptions then....
Leon
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You will end up with exceptions whichever boost you choose or the card will only be used for the few orc that see play already, the lieutenants. Any boost to them will be imbalanced.

I want a boost for the weak orcs, there is enough already for the lieutenants and automatic attacks. I think an extra strike and extra prowess is more balanced than +2 prowess and I really want to overwhelm the opponent with Pierced and Imprisoned. Orcs are meant to be with many weak guys.
Last edited by Leon on Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jambo
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So:
"+2 prowess to any Orc creature attack which normally has more than one strike. Discard when such an attack is defeated." (If I recall correctly the wording of the The Great Goblin's text would still allow him to attack with the +2).

Anyway, that would mean Orc-patrol now becomes 3@8, Orc-raiders 4@8, Orc-warriors 3@9, Orc Warband 5@9, Orc-guard 5@10, Orc-watch 3@11, Goblin-faces 3@9.

One could also word it "non-automatic Orc attack" to include the other types of Orc attacks that are neither creature or automatic attacks, e.g. Doubled Vigilance.

Or if using Leon's:
"+1 prowess and +1 strike to any Orc creature attack which normally has more than one strike. Discard when such an attack is defeated."

That means Orc-patrol now becomes 4@7, Orc-raiders 5@7, Orc-warriors 4@8, Orc Warband 6@8, Orc-guard 6@9, Orc-watch 4@10, Goblin-faces 4@8.

Either are quite interesting. It also might be nice to have something similar for Gothmog and Trolls!
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Nerdmeetsyou
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maybe we make both... like you said...
gothmog also needs an update...*G*
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