Re: Virtual magic duel cards

[Jambo]

Heard a lot about these over the last few days. Many share my apprehensions over these. Firstly, they seem to me to be too game-altering. I can imagine the situation occurring on GCCG where the FW, Wiz or RW is discarded and the player just "declares game lose" immediately...

I think the concept it cool but the current implementation maybe doesn't quite fit with the game. Losing an avatar is a major event and losing a F-wiz even more so.

So, ideas:

[2MP]Vanishment:
Spell. Playable on a Wizard during site phase at same site as opponent’s Ringwraith, Balrog, or Fallen-wizard (if he has more than 6 stage points). Your Wizard may tap to initiate a magic duel. You and opponent roll. Add 2 if a sage. Also add 2 for each spell or magic card discarded from hand. Player with lowest roll must discard a number of cards from hand equal to the difference in the result. Discard this card if you lose the duel. Your Wizard makes a corruption check at -3. Cannot be duplicated.

Corruption check balances the FW and RW tendencies not to move.

[2MP]Roots of the Earth
Playable on your Balrog or Ringwraith during the site phase at same site as opponent’s Wizard, Fallen-wizard, Balrog (if Ringwraith) or Ringwraith (if Balrog). Your Balrog or Ringwraith may tap to initiate a magic duel. You and opponent roll. Add 2 if a sage. Also add 2 for each magic, spell, or demon fana card discarded from hand. Player with lowest roll must discard a number of cards from hand equal to the difference in the result. Discard this card if you lose the duel. Cannot be duplicated.

[2MP; 4SP]Shameless Deeds
Playable on your Fallen-wizard (if you have more than 6 stage points) during site phase at same site as opponent’s Wizard or Fallen-wizard. Your Fallen-wizard may tap to initiate a magic duel. You and opponent roll. Add 2 if a sage. Also add 2 for each spell or magic card discarded from hand. Player with lowest roll must discard a number of cards from hand equal to the difference in the result. Discard this card if you lose the duel. Your Fallen-wizard’s company is overt, and attacks against it from other companies cannot be cancelled. Cannot be duplicated.

No corruption deck, but stage points and company overt.

Neither of these are so game-altering, but they're fun, dangerous and worth the MPs if you succeed.

What do you think?

[Bandobras Took]

Have we yet seen any decks based around the original ideas of the Virtual Cards?

[Bandobras Took]

I think I'd rather see them act as Prisoner taking cards giving no MPs -- the avatar that loses is taken prisoner at the home site of the winning Avatar.

I don't like the discard idea because

1) Khamul as a hazard does it;
2) It'll provide an even greater boost to speed decks;
and
3) It leaves the avatar who bothered to try it at a site with an extremely angry company on the other side, which is hardly a safe position in which to be.

[Jambo]

I think I'd rather see them act as Prisoner taking cards giving no MPs -- the avatar that loses is taken prisoner at the home site of the winning Avatar.

I don't like the discard idea because

1) Khamul as a hazard does it;
2) It'll provide an even greater boost to speed decks;
and
3) It leaves the avatar who bothered to try it at a site with an extremely angry company on the other side, which is hardly a safe position in which to be.

Well, presumably you wouldn't want to send the avatar to the site by himself if there was a posse of angry characters of the opposite alignment located there.

Miguel raised a good point on GCCG last night: A wizard player is in a position to call, so he goes to site of FW to initiate magic duel. Few spells, and maybe an And Forth he Hastened should ensure he can initiate without problem. Now, because he's going to call anyway this turn there's little need to worry about GI implications should he lose the duel. In contrast a FW stands to lose all allies, items, FW specific stage cards, and anything else on the Wizard the turn before the end of the game....

"Declare lose"

Maybe the avatar dueling/discarding cards should be saved for another later set where a better balance be attained and supporting cards can also be introduced? If 50 virtual cards are desired then maybe their slots could be filled with something else?

[Bandobras Took]

Perhaps if the bonus to the roll were smaller so that there's not too big a gap between a dedicated deck and non dedicated deck?

An easy +6 to a roll is far superior to an easy +3.

I don't want to see the concept vanish entirely, and would still maintain that actual play with the current versions is far better than theoretical objections.

I have built a Fallen Saruman deck with this as a definite possibility, and ran up against a deck where the RW never budged from the Darkhaven. I would have been screwed if it were the main focus.

[miguel]

I wouldn't make a deck based only on magic-dueling since I don't consider it to be a really viable strategy as such, but were I playing Hero I would certainly use it against Fw in the manner described by Jambo above. It doesn't even matter much if the bonus to the roll is smaller, a close game in that scenario would simply become a coin toss (with very little, if anything to lose for the Hero player). I prefer to outplay my opponents to win, than to merely get lucky...

[Thorsten the Traveller]

Couldn't agree more, and not to say I told you so, but I told Frodo so already when the first version was posted last year, that this could and probably would have devastating effects on the game, beyond what is good fun. (the minus 3 for Sauron likewise, but this was all before debate on the Virtuals started to grow it seems, so now alot of arguments are repeated, well shoot)

The prisoner option is perhaps a better way to go indeed, if you want to stick to magic duels, though it would be strange that you immediately return to the avatars home site, vanishing as it were . To Get You Away is already strange enough. Taken prisoner at a site nearby, or as I seem to remember I proposed back then, prevented from doing stuff for next turn or all the game even. something along that line.

Personally I don't like the magic duel concept that much, because one side prepares for it, designing his deck to this end, and the other side can't counter other than run away, because he can't win the duel probably (you don't stack your deck with spells 'just in case').

At the risk of drowning in negative comment on these cards: there's also the issue of the place, why can wizards only initiate in a free-hold, and ringwraiths anywhere they please?
And I don't like the Radagast 3 MP issue either. Supposedly it should give incentive to take on a squatting Rada, well if I see a squatting Rada I don't need incentive, I tell you (duelling would be about the only thing you can do against him), and Rada is probably the easiest target around (no sage, hardly uses spells). But moreover, you don't get to decide with which avatar your opponent plays, so if there's no thematic backing this is sheer nonsense.

[Nerdmeetsyou]

I would make them just like the imprison card where you can rescue him...
but for each faction a card similar to that... or another effekt... at least it shouldn't be discarding or eliminating!!!
(didn't gandalf say that he once was inprisoned in Dol Guldor or something like that?)
maybe they cannot kill each other???

and of cause you must be able to rescue your avatar with: The windlord found me...

and I wouldn't make the roll depending on the magic cards you discard, because of the reson said above (deck tuning where you can't do anything against it... and how should test of Fire help you in a duel...*G*)

maybe you could make some supprt cards, but nothing else.
like a card that makes it easier to keep the char imprisoned???


I will make correct card suggestions as soon as I come home... (I'm at work now)

[Nerdmeetsyou]

okay here my suggestions:

There is a global rule for challanges:
Each challange card is indicated as a challange.
And then are the characters listed which participate on each side.
A challange is only playalbe if you are at the site and the characters are present.
Only one challenge per site phase and you cannot initiate a company VS company battle and a challange during the same site phase.
After that come the modifier of the roll that is made by each player.
Then the effect.

V- Persuasive Words
Permanent Event
Challenge.
Your Wizard (or fallen-Wizard with 6 or lesser stage points) challanges an opponents wizard (or fallen wizard with 6 or less stage points) at the same site.
Each player makes a roll. You add your direct influence (-3 if your wizard is taped) and your opponent adds his global influence.
If your roll is higher than your opponents, tap his wizard and put this card on him, otherwise discard it. His wizard cannot untap. This card is discarded if his wizard is at a haven during his organisation phase.

V - Wizards Voice
Short Event
Cancel a challange played by your opponent in the same chain of effects or cancel a challenge permanent event on your wizard.
Can also be played during your opponents site phase.
Alternatively can be played to discard an on guard card.

V - When I know anything
Challenge.
Your character challanges any wizard (or fallen-wizard with 6 or fewer stage points) at the same site.
Each player makes a roll and adds the characters mind (10 if wizard).
You add +3 if your character is a diplomat and subtract -3 if tapped.
If your roll is higher place this card on your opponents wizard otherwise place this card on his wizard. His wizard can move two lesser regions.
May be discarded during his organisation phase if roll >8.

V -
Challenge.
Your fallen-wizard challenges any wizard.
Each player makes a roll and adds 1 for each of his stage points fewer than 7.
If your roll is higher your opponents wizard must make a curruption check -3.

[Nerdmeetsyou]

V - ???
Minion
Permanent Event
Challenge.
Your avatar challanges an opponents wizard or fallen-wizard.
Each player makes a roll and adds his or her prowles and the number of characters present.
If your roll is sucessful your avatar imidiently is placed at your nearest haven and your opponents wizard is taken prison there. This card is placed with the opponents wizard.
The site where the wizard is taken prison gains an additional automatic attack of your avatars prowles as long as he is present there. If your roll isn't successful you become wounded and this card is discarded.

[Nerdmeetsyou]

V- Vanishment
Hero
Permanent Event
Challange.
Your Wizard challenges an opponents ringwraith, balrog or fallen-wizrad (with 7 or more stage points).
Each player may play only spells that modifie the prowles of his avatar.
Then each player makes a roll and adds the characters prowless.
The Avatar with the lower roll becomes wounded and this card is placed on him. he has -4 prowles and -1 body. This card can be removed if he is at a haven during his organisation phase if the roll is greather than 9.

[Nerdmeetsyou]

V- ???

Add +3 to any of your challange atemp this turn.
Alternativly all your characters gain +1 prowless in a company VS company battle.
This can also be played during your opponents turn.