[V Suggestion] - The Bowman And The Arrow

GuardianOfTheFlame
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Hi all!
These are the versions of Bard The Bowman and Black Arrow that I would like to see:
Bard The Bowman
Type: Hero Character
MP: 2
Mind: 6
DI: 1
Race: Warrior/Ranger Man
P/B: 5/9
Text: Unique. +2 direct influence against Men Of Northern Rhovanion faction. +2 prowess against Dragon or Drake attacks.
Home Site: Lake-Town

I think that Bard is an important character in Middle-Earth: guardsman of Esgaroth, Dragonslayer and King Of Dale so 0MP is non-sense for me. i adjust Prowess, Body and Mind considering he's a guard (soldier) and a skilled archers. DI 1 seems the minimum to me 'cause he is always a Son of King (as heir of Girion)! +2 Prowess against Dragons and drakes attack... well he's a dragonslayer!
As King Of Dale... maybe he can have bonus on Men Of Dale and Dale as Home Site?

Black Arrow
Type: Minor Item (hero)
Text: Warrior only. Tap Black Arrow to give -1 to the prowess and body (-2 if on Bard The Bowman or an elf character) of any one attack against bearer's company. When Black Arrow is tapped, discard it if its bearer is not a ranger. Cannot be duplicated on a given company.
CP: 1

Bearer must be a Warrior to be able to use a bow and a Ranger to be able to retrieve the arrow and use it again :wink: (why the hell only a man can use an arrow!?!)
Bard and elves are better archers so they use the arrow at maximum efficiently.

Salo
Last edited by GuardianOfTheFlame on Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nerdmeetsyou
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I think the black arrow is a little bit boring...

this is my version:

Black Arrow
Type: Minor Item (hero)
Text: Warrior only. Ranger only.
You may tap and discard Black Arrow to give any one attack of prowles 11 or more -3 prowess and body. -4 if this creature is a dragon or drake.
CP: 1
Jambo
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To the Original Poster:

Have you checked out the Bard the Bowman in the current VC set? He's pretty nifty now, at least when used up in Dragon country.

Regards your suggestions, yes Bard is good, but he's not really much different from other run of the mill 6 mind characters. Having too many big prowess, big mind characters just limits company composition. Sometimes having lower mind and more targeted bonuses can lead to more interesting combinations and strategies.

The Black Arrow you've quoted is far too powerful for a minor item. A couple of elves or an elf and Bard with two Black Arrows could give a -4/-4 to a single creature attack or a -2/-2 to two different attacks each m/h phase, better than most Major and Greater Items...

Regards
GuardianOfTheFlame
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Location: Cameri (NO), Italy

I think the black arrow is a little bit boring...
Personally I like the original Black Arrow for gameplaying, but I think is illogical in role-playing. I think that the great mistake of I.C.E. is that they don't have standard guidelines for cards and keywords.
I try to make a version more "realistic" and at the same time playable and balanced. I like the idea of skills that represent abilities so I think that to use a particular arrow you must able to use bows effectly (warrior) and able to retrieve it (ranger). I don't understand why only a man could be able to retrieve an arrow. Bard can kill Smaug cause he's a skilled archer (and thanks to the old thrush help) not because he is a man. And I don't like cards keyed to a particular character (if not strictly necessary). An arrow is an arrow and can be used by every bowman, more efficiently by someone particularly skilled (Bard as saw in the Hobbit and the famous elven archers).
The Black Arrow you've quoted is far too powerful for a minor item. A couple of elves or an elf and Bard with two Black Arrows could give a -4/-4 to a single creature attack or a -2/-2 to two different attacks each m/h phase, better than most Major and Greater Items...
you cannot give -4/-4 cause "Only one Black Arrow effect can be applied on a given attack. ".
but maybe it's again too powerful... in the origin I plan it "unique" (I always seen THE black arrow), but can be boring for gameplay if played by opponent (especially 'cause it can be used as starting item) so I could add "cannot be duplicated on a given company" instead.
Have you checked out the Bard the Bowman in the current VC set? He's pretty nifty now, at least when used up in Dragon country.

Regards your suggestions, yes Bard is good, but he's not really much different from other run of the mill 6 mind characters. Having too many big prowess, big mind characters just limits company composition. Sometimes having lower mind and more targeted bonuses can lead to more interesting combinations and strategies.
I agree about the important of low-minded characters, but I think that Bard as guardsman of Esgaroth, Dragonslayer and King Of Dale is an important character and that the original version doesn't respect the personality that Tolkien give to him. For example, in his mithology Bard is more important than Brand (his Grandson) and the cards don't reflect this.
Again I try to create a more realistic character based on "The Hobbit".
As I said I agree your considerations but there are lot of minor characters more suitable for a low-minded part (also consider that there are few men with a decent prowess/body)

An other great injustice is Halbarad: the second in command of the Dúnedain behind Aragorn and the leader of the Grey Company a 0/5!?!
For gameplay is a great card, but it's another nonsense to me (and to many others!)

Salo
P.S.: it's interesting to share point of views like these... I plan a scenario and are very useful :wink:
P.P.S.: I change "Only one Black Arrow effect can be applied on a given attack." in "cannot be duplicated in a given company"
Last edited by GuardianOfTheFlame on Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bandobras Took
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I always wanted Bard to have a dream card similar to Return of the King or King Under the Mountain.

However, I think the current Virtual Card works very well in conjunction with some of the others -- particularly Alert the Folk.
Leon
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As it is the black arrow is quite a useful card, no need to change it. Bard was undervalued but the Virtual version sounds great to me.
GuardianOfTheFlame
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As it is the black arrow is quite a useful card, no need to change it. Bard was undervalued but the Virtual version sounds great to me.
As I said in the previous post, I agree that they are useful cards, but I focus more on role-playing than game-playing aspect.
The Virtual existing version is a little better, but I think that it doesn't reflect the personality of the Tolkien's Character.
Also I don't like the mechanism used in the virtual card (and sometimes used by ICE. the absence of guidelines led ICE to create different style cards about similar concept) in which the arrow is "keyed" to Bard and Dragons. In the book the Black Arrow is described as a balanced and deadly arrow and Bard as one of the greatest archer, but the arrow was not create specifically for Bard or for Dragons. In The Hobbit he uses it to kill a dragon, but it could be an other skilled archer or another type of creature.
I always wanted Bard to have a dream card similar to Return of the King or King Under the Mountain.
mmhh... do you mean somewhat like "King Of Dale"? It could be very interesting... I think a Permanent Resource Event playable on Bard maybe somewhat like this:

King Of Dale
Type: Hero Permanent Event
MP: 4
Influence: +2
Playable on any manifestation of Bard if his company has defeated a Dragon Manifestation.
Bard receive +2 direct influence and can automatically influence Men Of Dale faction.

What do you think of it?

Salo
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Nerdmeetsyou
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maybe we could combine your cards to a card that makes bard to a greath warrior after killing a dragon???

like:

Coped from his doings
type: Hero Permanent Event
MP: (3)
Playable on any manifestation of Bard if his company has defeated a Dragon Manifestation this turn.
Bard receives +3 prowles, body, mind and direct influence.
You gain 3 Mascheling Points if this card is stored at Lake Town.
The Man of Dale are worth 3 Marshelingpoints if you have stored this card.
GuardianOfTheFlame
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Coped from his doings
type: Hero Permanent Event
MP: (3)
Playable on any manifestation of Bard if his company has defeated a Dragon Manifestation this turn.
Bard receives +3 prowles, body, mind and direct influence.
You gain 3 Mascheling Points if this card is stored at Lake Town.
The Man of Dale are worth 3 Marshelingpoints if you have stored this card.
mmhh... I think that in The Hobbit, Bard doesn't become more powerful after killing Smaug. The difference is the influence he gains as the saviour of the land, influence higher enough to be crown king of Dale and to restore the old kingdom. In my imagination "King Of Dale" is a title and not an enhancement.

I think that a card like the one you suggest fit better on a character like Siegfried: he kills the dragon and then he bathes in the dragon's blood, becoming stronger and toughter and semi-invulnerable :shock:
Bard was a very skilled archer before and after the slaying of Smaug and he kills the dragon thanks to the help of the Black Arrow and the thrush tip. :wink:

In my opinion, bard+black arrow+old thrush should be enough to kill Smaug, as written in the book. Something like Fram+Wormsbane is enough to kill Scatha.
...the actual Bard could slay only a pigeon :wink:
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Nerdmeetsyou
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you are right... maybe we should keep bard then like he is in the new virtual version now...
but make his black arrow abilitie different...

maybe he can discard the black arrow to reduce the dragons body to zero???


and then as a second there could be a card that gives bard a lot of direct influence after killing a dragon manifestation? like your king card...
(isn't there a card thats even called: Lord of Lake-Town ... or somethign like that???(some kind of short event))
Jambo
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If you have [V]Bard the Bowman with a Black Arrow and use an Old Thrush against a Dragon attack, the Dragon attack will be at -6/-6.
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Thorsten the Traveller
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However, making Black Arrow unique isn't such a strange idea. First, it was unique (Bard only had one), second you couldn't then start with it, and third you can make it more powerful without worrying about too excessive effects. Black Arrow is useful now, but not that useful, I fully agree with Guardian that it's nonsense why only a man could use the arrow without loosing it, I actually like his first version, the Black Arrow does deserve a bit more, even though in combo with V Bard he's good.

Brings to my mind, we once had a UEP discussion about changing Sting, perhaps a V Sting could be in order now. Both unique minor items that deserve a bit more, but should not be on par with a major/greater item either (bow of dragon horn, bow of Galadrim see almost no play, that's a pitty too). Tricky stuff.
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Nerdmeetsyou
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I like bard how he and his arrow are now... I even included him in my dwarf dragon killing deck for testing purpose..

About the other iteams....
i would give sting some kind of cancel ablity for orcs or something like that...
(ain't I right that sting glows if orcs are around?)
so you could flee earlyer or something like that...
OR you would allow something like playing it even though it is uniqu as a starting iteam which must then be revealed like a character....?

Whats the story about the bow of dragon horn? is it important in the story?


about the bow of galadrim....
what's the story behind it?
is galadrim a charcter you could activly play?
GuardianOfTheFlame
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Ops! posting here & there I didn't see your answers :shock:
If you have [V]Bard the Bowman with a Black Arrow and use an Old Thrush against a Dragon attack, the Dragon attack will be at -6/-6.
You're right, but this solution seems to me a way to make dragon killable (for Bard) rather than a better rapresentation of the character and the arrow that Tolkien describes in his books.
In a game like this, I consider balance and role-play at the same level of importance: this is the spirit of my suggestion (and not simple a way to use him in my King Under The Mountain Deck).
However, making Black Arrow unique isn't such a strange idea
Thinking about it, I prefer to not include the unique clause for balancing. There are few items that lower attack body, so I prefer that both players have the same chances to hunt, especially considering scenario like Dragon Hunt or the one that I'm creating.
I don't remember if in The Hobbit it's said that Black Arrow is unique. If not it's reasonable to think that the maker could have created multiple copies (normally you make a set of arrows and not only 1!) and Bard found 1 of them.
About the other iteams
I think it's better remain in the topic argument (it's more clear), but I like these discussions :P ... I suggest you to open 2 post about Sting and the Bow so we can talk about them freely :D
Justice is meaningless without Freedom - V (from V For Vendetta by Alan Moore)
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Nerdmeetsyou
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to solve the problem you are taling about guardian...
we just had to remove the new V-card from bard
and make it a V -card of Black arrow.
like:

Black arrow
Iteam
Tap black arrow to redice the prowles and body of an attack -1.
(-3 if dragon)


... but for gamebalancing reason... and to push bard as you said...
I would keep the V-card as it is...

(and I think black arrow is good enough...so why make a V-card about it?)
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