some controversial ones

[marcos]

i like that! thanks for your suggestion!!!

edited and added doors of night requirement for extra flood

[Jambo]

Permanent event
Environment. The turn this card enters play, place all region cards that are adjacent to a coastal sea with this card. During each of your opponent's organization phase place with this card all region cards that are adjacent to any region that was already placed with this card on any previous turn. If this card's Virtual version has been duplicated, its effect are cumulative. All region cards under Storms of Osse are considered to be coastal sea regions.

You might end up with some odd patterns this way once the flood goes further than the regions adjacent to those adjacent to coastal seas. It may become complicated for players with their regions cards.

You also have the advantage of not having to stipulate "virtual", since the original version "cannot be duplicated" and therefore cannot be in play at the same time.

When we talked about it on GCCG, I had a slightly different impression for this card. Here's my thoughts:

Permanent event
Environment. Playable if Gates of Morning is not in play. The following regions or sites can also be considered coastal seas for the purposes of playing hazards. The effects are cumulative depending on the number of Storms of Osse in play. One: All regions adjacent to coastal sea regions. Two: Forochel, Anduin Vales, Wold and Foothills, Brown Lands, Rohan, Dagorlad, Anorien, Northern Rhovanian, Nurn and all Under-deeps Ruins & Lairs. Three or more: All regions or Under-deeps sites adjacent to those affected above.

The effect of making them a coastal sea is therefore in addition to their normal region or site type. One can still get lost in the free domains for instance. If it affects the resource side too, then these cards will be played as resources to aid moving round Gondor and to screw Ringwraith companies.

(The second selection was based on where the big lakes and the Anduin are and also encompassed flooding of some Under-deep sites.)

[Thorsten the Traveller]

I really like the inundation theme, but to cover all ME is water in 3 turns (Marcos' suggestion) is a bit harsh, therefore Jambo's suggestion I like better. I would make it Doors dependent anyway, devastating storms don't just happen any day, and Osse was aligned with Melkor for some time at least.

Anyway, any region next to coastal is already very good, you can flood Tom's house (who is impervious to rain). Many people travel through Cardolan, and then you can send them with the Winds of Wrath to Udun!(and hit them with a sand-drake, oh irony )

also, Forochel is next to coastal already - only it doesn't show on the normal map, but it does on the Northern Waste map.

I also like the Poison Voice etc. idea turning Isengard into darkhaven, but it merits special attention. Wasn't there a thread some time ago about this idea, or dreamcard special at meccg.net? What if (FW) Saruman is in play? It is nice to have another haven a bit closer there in that region, Gean-a-lish is just rubbish.

The unique argument also counts for Valiant Sword I suppose, that's not nice.

[Jambo]

Winds of Wrath can only affect companies moving to sites that have coastal seas in the site's site path. Old Forest has two wilderness and the two wilderness aren't being replaced by coastal seas.

The Under-deeps part might only be possible for hazard creatures and not hazard events.

[Thorsten the Traveller]

ah true, you need Chance of Being lost for that combo. Long time since I pulled that off.

[marcos]

The unique argument also counts for Valiant Sword I suppose, that's not nice.

But there's no option to make that sword non unique, since it is Eomer's only sword.
Edited and added the non-virtual clause to it too so normal valiant swords are still playable...

What if (FW) Saruman is in play? It is nice to have another haven a bit closer there in that region, Gean-a-lish is just rubbish.

added "cannot be played if Saruman is in play as opposing wizard"

I really like the inundation theme, but to cover all ME is water in 3 turns (Marcos' suggestion) is a bit harsh, therefore Jambo's suggestion I like better. I would make it Doors dependent anyway, devastating storms don't just happen any day, and Osse was aligned with Melkor for some time at least.

Anyway, any region next to coastal is already very good, you can flood Tom's house (who is impervious to rain). Many people travel through Cardolan, and then you can send them with the Winds of Wrath to Udun!(and hit them with a sand-drake, oh irony )

i do like Jambo's one better than mine too. But dunno if make it a door of night dependant card. I would try to word it according to ben's suggestion that extra flood do require doors of night, and without doors only inundation near the coast...

[Jambo]

Permanent event
Environment. Playable if Gates of Morning is not in play. The following regions or sites can also be considered coastal seas for the purposes of playing hazards. The effects are cumulative depending on the number of Storms of Osse in play. One: All regions adjacent to coastal sea regions. Two: Forochel, Anduin Vales, Wold and Foothills, Brown Lands, Rohan, Dagorlad, Anorien, Northern Rhovanian, Nurn. Two or more if The Reach of Ulmo is in play: All Under-deeps sites (hazard creatures only) and all regions adjacent to those affected above.

What ya think?

[marcos]

we been talking with jamie and we thought that a doors of night clause would be too typical, so we used a more thematic permanent event as reference: The reach of ulmo.
Doors requirement will help a bit the play of nameless things wich is also helped by this card, so why help a creature that already sees play a lot with 2 cards?

as for the rest of the card, we keep it as Jambo's first suggestion...

[Jambo]

Ok, Marcos, been thinking about Ghosts and what we can do to shape it into a cool hazard. One option is going the permanent-event/creature route, which seems to work very well; something along the lines of how the Balrog of Moria works perhaps? Also, there didn't seem to be much need to make it a Manifestation of Army of the Dead when one can just link it to Army of the Dead in the text and in doing so, avoid any potential issues with two manifestations being in play.

Anyway, here's a selection of ideas to think about (space is obviously a crucial aspect):

As just a creature:

Ghosts (V)
Creature - (6) (18/5)
Unique. Undead. Two strikes. May be played at Dunharrow or Vale of Erech. After the attack, each character wounded by Barrow-wight makes a corruption check modified by -3. If Army of the Dead or Return of the King is in play, the attack is detainment against hero companies and may be keyed to Rohan, Lebennin and all adjacent regions, or any site within these regions. Cannot be played against a company with Aragorn II. A minion player receives the MPs for defeating this creature.

Or, something like Shelob:

Ghosts (V)
Creature/Permanent-event - (6) (18/5)
Unique. Undead. Two strikes. As a creature may be played at Dunharrow or Vale of Erech. If Army of the Dead or Return of the King is in play, the attack is detainment against heroes and may be keyed to Rohan, Lebennin and all adjacent regions, or any site within these regions. Cannot be played against a company with Aragorn II.
If Doors of Night is in play, Ghosts may be played as a permanent-event: any Undead creature may be keyed to Dunharrow or Vale or Erech and all influence attempts in Rohan and Lebennin are modified by -4. Ghosts may opt to attack from the permanent-event state (counting against the hazard limit). A minion player receives the MPs for defeating this creature.

Or something like the Balrog of Moria:

Ghosts (V)
Permanent-event - (6) (18/5)
Unique. Dunharrow and Vale of Erech each gain an automatic-attack: Undead -- 2 strikes at 18/5. Undead creatures may be played at Dunharrow and Vale of Erech and do not count against the hazard limit.
If Return of the King or Army of the Dead is in play, any company moving through Lebennin or Rohan or any adjacent region receives an attack: Undead -- 2 strikes at 18/5 (detainment against heroes).
All attacks from this card are automatically cancelled against a company with Aragorn II.
A minion player receives the MPs for defeating such an attack.

Or some other combination of the above. There's maybe a better or more exciting effect to be had from a permanent-event state than any of those that I've listed.

[Leon]

I would choose your first version of Ghosts V, Jambo. That is a powerfull defence versus minions if you have Aragorn in Gondor to become king, without hindering yourself at the same time. This would be an awesome card for the right moment, something to have in your sideboard.

[marcos]

i would go with a creature only version too. I like your version Jamie, but i have a few questions:

1- Why pump Barrow wight ccs? What has a barrow wight to do with the army of the dead?
2- Why lebbennin? Army of the dead is playable at vale of erech wich is at LAMEDON
3- How would Army of the dead work if this creature is defeated? that makes no sense, that is why i made it a manifestation of the faction

[marcos]

what do you guys think about this version:

Creature - (6) (18/5)
Unique. Undead. Two strikes. May be played at Dunharrow or Vale of Erech. If Army of the Dead or Return of the King is in play, the attack is detainment against hero companies and may be keyed to Rohan, Lamedon and all adjacent regions, or any site within these regions. If Doors of Night is in play, after an attack from Ghosts any Undead creature may be keyed to Dunharrow or Vale or Erech. Cannot be played against a company with Aragorn II. Remove Army of the dead from play if this creature is defeated. A minion player also receives the MPs for defeating this creature.

[Jambo]

1- Why pump Barrow wight ccs? What has a barrow wight to do with the army of the dead?
2- Why lebbennin? Army of the dead is playable at vale of erech wich is at LAMEDON
3- How would Army of the dead work if this creature is defeated? that makes no sense, that is why i made it a manifestation of the faction

1. Oops. Copied text from Barrow-wight but was supposed to be Ghosts. D'oh.
2. Double oops. Didn't have a map at hand when I wrote this so guessed at Lebennin. Lamedon was the right region.
3. Your revision is cool. I do think there should be a cc for being wounded.



Now, the big question - do you think it will see much play as a creature only?

[marcos]

on a dedicated deck, yes, i think so... sleepless malice can help them a lot

[Frodo]

All I can say is, “Wow.”

I’m really, really impressed by the development of Storms of Osse. The other cards are cool as well, but it’s this one in particular seems to combine a lot of elements that I particularly enjoy: game-play value, and a very high (and fun) THEME. We could even put a line in the clarifications recommending using region cards to track affected sites for aesthetic purposes, just to encourage players to do this part too. Flooding middle-earth… what kind of sick, Sauron-like mind could have conceived of such a lovely thing… Wow, wow, wow!

Okay, so I think the final wording on Storms is absolutely perfect, with the exception that the last clause should be “three or more if…”, otherwise, this effect can be generated very quickly. Now, the card can stand alone as it is, or we could conceivably add a little extra “splash.” Why? Because, to my mind there’s still something missing from the, well, apocalyptic nature of the card. Isn’t the idea here to reference the infamous destruction of Numenor, when the Dundedain grew too high and mighty and had to be struck down by the gods, and their city of “Avalon” was literally sucked up by a giant chasm of the sea and vanished like Atlantis, or like the Judeo-Christian Noah’s? So many coastal seas on the map IS scary; but what about another line of ill-will that directly ties in to this Dunedain downfall (if my Silmarilion memory is serving my correctly)? Here are some suggestions, in ascending order of coolness:

Option 1:
“Three or more if The Reach of Ulmo is in play: All Under-deeps sites…<snip>…. In addition, when the 3rd or greater copy of this card is played, all Dunedain in play return to their owner’s hands (one item may be automatically transferred). All Dunedain receive +2 mind.”

Option 2:
““Three or more if The Reach of Ulmo is in play: All Under-deeps sites…<snip>…. In addition, Minas Tirith, Pelargir, and Dol Amroth are discarded along with all cards at these sites and cannot be replayed. All Dunedain receive +2 mind.”

I can’t quite remember what areas where considered part of “Numenor,” but I suppose this would be the modern-day middle earth equivalent of the disaster. Thoughts?

Okay, now Army of the Dead. Regarding the manifestation issue, I think Marcos’s wording isn’t quite enough (otherwise they could play the faction and then it’s instantly removed…), so it’s better to just word it as follows: “Manifestation of Army of the Dead and may be played if Army is in play.” -3 CC is perfect. No need to have the “if a minion player…” line, because we can merely place an * next to the redefined marshalling point value. Undead extra playability clause not necessary but could be fun. Body seems a little low; consider that for minions to kill the often played Gandalf the White Rider, they need to beat a 15, but a 9 body, twice. Here they need to beat something with 3 more prowess, but 3 less body! That is an easier-to-kill card, IMHO. Shouldn’t it be a 7, at least? That way it will be statistically heroic if the minions actually kill it.

As far as playability, if we keep it as a creature, I think it will see play in two fashions: 1) as a vs. minions creature for a player running the Return of the King strategy 2) possible sideboard creature for vs. hero players who forsee a move of opponent’s to the hittable sites. This is okay. Part of me wishes it hit the Rohan region more easily, since this is an extremely safe area that is growing more popular among hero deck, however there’s no way to do this without making the card both too powerful and too un-thematic (the Army didn’t roam all over until activated), unless we made it a Balrog-like (not Shelob-like) permanent event that had a thematic anti-Rohan ability (they were scared of this thing, after all), such as –2 prowess and –2 DI for any company moving through Rohan, or something like that.

I do have a tiny extra suggestion for the card though! How about adding:
“If Army of the Dead or Return of the King is in play, the attack is detainment against hero companies and may be keyed to Rohan, Lamedon and all adjacent regions or sites within these regions, as well as any site with Aragorn II.’

!! This would mean you could move your Aragorn II to opponent’s minion site, then play Ghosts (V) on the opponent’s turn if he’s not smart enough to get the hell out of there, so Aragorn is effectively “leading” the Army to do battle!

Frodo