VI. GCCG Nations Cup 2011 (Planning/Talk) 12.03

[Sauron]

If you don't like or don't agree with the way a tournament has been stablished, then you just don't play it.

And if at last you do play, then you should stop annoying all the other players who play this game only for fun. FUN is the only reason why most people keep playing Middle Earth in 2012, and if you destroy the fun of it all then what's the point on you trying so hard to be right all the time?

I would ask you to grow up but you don't seem to want to do that, so please just stop annoying the players and bringing polemic to a beatiful game that is so about to die.

If Sauron brings this discussion up again next year again, please do not team up with him so he is not able to play. Seems to be the only alternative to have a peaceful tournament.

If you don't like the way I play, which is within the rules, then you don't have to play in the tournament. How does that logic sound?
Last year, everyone was like I should have brought it up sooner.
This year, I actually do bring it up sooner and people don't discuss or do anything differently.

You tell me to grow up, I tell you I'm protesting. I would like to see change, I would like to see enforcement and if I have to become the outcast in the community so be it.

You know you could have a peaceful tournament next year with me, by you know just including time limits or penalities for slow play. Oh look I just solved everyone's problems.

Because organizers are unwilling to deal with this problem that exists and persists in the tournament scene, I will continue my campaign until something is done about it.

[Balin]

These are the rules for this tournament:

* We follow the rules which are officially confirmed by the Council of Elrond and the tournament policy of the Council of Lorien.

*And remember - NO TIME LIMIT -. Yes, this one event we play without time limit which is great, i know

And the tournament policy of the Council of Lorien says (from http://www.tabernafaecvm.com/middleeart ... uncil.html, paragraph 19):

Players that Stall-If an opponent is believed to be stalling for purposeful gain, or if an opponent is believed to be stalling through a lack of respect for or sensitivity to the time limit, the player can petition the tournament coordinator to observe the game. If the coordinator observes that the opponent is stalling more than what is reasonable and necessary, the coordinator can call the game in favor of the non-stalling player.

That's why I claim for a judge, because my opponent is threatening me about stalling. Therefore, a judge is needed. I hope that Pawel,the tournament organizer, could show up on Sunday at 7pm GMT+1. Otherwise, I think the match should be re-schedule in order to have a judge observing it.

[Sauron]

These are the rules for this tournament:

* We follow the rules which are officially confirmed by the Council of Elrond and the tournament policy of the Council of Lorien.

*And remember - NO TIME LIMIT -. Yes, this one event we play without time limit which is great, i know

And the tournament policy of the Council of Lorien says (from http://www.tabernafaecvm.com/middleeart ... uncil.html, paragraph 19):

Players that Stall-If an opponent is believed to be stalling for purposeful gain, or if an opponent is believed to be stalling through a lack of respect for or sensitivity to the time limit, the player can petition the tournament coordinator to observe the game. If the coordinator observes that the opponent is stalling more than what is reasonable and necessary, the coordinator can call the game in favor of the non-stalling player.

That's why I claim for a judge, because my opponent is threatening me about stalling. Therefore, a judge is needed. I hope that Pawel,the tournament organizer, could show up on Sunday at 7pm GMT+1. Otherwise, I think the match should be re-schedule in order to have a judge observing it.

Let me break down the quoted policy for you and explain how it doesn't apply.
1) "If an opponent is believed to be stalling for purposeful gain." What would be my purposeful gain? Since there is no limit I can't wait out the clock. There is no purposeful gain.

2) "or If an opponet is believed to be stalling through a lack of respect for or sensitity to the time limit." Again since there is no limit I can't be stalling through a lack of respect for or sensitivity to the time limit.

I have researched and thought this through very thoroughly. There isn't anything a judge can do based on this. The tournament organizer will have to just out right disqualify me, under some made up rule as nothing currently exists in the current rule set to stop my protest.

[thorondor]

Because organizers are unwilling to deal with this problem that exists and persists in the tournament scene, I will continue my campaign until something is done about it.

i cant remember there was any problem with time limits (or no time limits) except for sauron. so why are you trying so hard to fight the rule, when the solution could be so easy: you dont like it? dont play this tourney. and let those who like enjoy it.

btw: i played nations cup every year, and i always loved it. but seeing myself in the position like balin now is made me not register this year ...

[Balin]

That's your interpretation on the rules. It's the judge interpretation what matters.

[Sauron]

Because organizers are unwilling to deal with this problem that exists and persists in the tournament scene, I will continue my campaign until something is done about it.

i cant remember there was any problem with time limits (or no time limits) except for sauron. so why are you trying so hard to fight the rule, when the solution could be so easy: you dont like it? dont play this tourney. and let those who like enjoy it.

btw: i played nations cup every year, and i always loved it. but seeing myself in the position like balin now is made me not register this year ...

Just because you didn't run into problems doesn't means others didn't. Why am I trying so hard for something I believe in? Because I feel it's right, it's a problem that has persisted too long and has not been dealt with. If the CoE had actually tackled this issue, then I wouldn't be here repeating the same thing year after year after year. There exists this belief we should just let crap go because the community is small, and that is just not right. If something is wrong then it needs to be dealt with and not just pushed off the plate year in and year out.

Why do I play? I play because I want change. An easy solution for those who don't like what I'm doing, don't sign up to play, see how easy it is to twist your statement?

And if you choose not to play in nations cup that is your choice, I'm not forcing you to not play. Each person is an individual and has to decide if it's worth it to them to play or not.

When the CoE actually does something about my particular problem, then I will stop my protest and not until then. I will continue to play in tournaments and I will continue my protest.

[Sauron]

That's your interpretation on the rules. It's the judge interpretation what matters.

It's not just my interpertation of the rules, it's the facts. I can't be disrepectful to the time limit if one does not exist. If one does not exist than I can't be gaining from it either. Those are simple facts.

2nd Pawel can't judge our game as he is a participant in the tournament, he would be "scouting" our decks.

[Muad'Dib]

I agree that maybe games with Sauron will need the judge but im not the best person because im also playing. If anybody can help it will be great - i mean being the judge during the game. I remember the game against Trossell in GCCG champs when he was playing very slow, and it was event with time limit. The reason i didnt call for DQ him was i organized this event i didnt want to DQ my opponent.

I hope Sauron's slow playing doesnt mean stalling, maybe just a little bit slower. Anyway if somebody can be a judge on sunday i will be thankful. Of course i dont accept his attitude and if there will be real problem with stalling im going to solve it.

[Sauron]

I agree that maybe games with Sauron will need the judge but im not the best person because im also playing. If anybody can help it will be great - i mean being the judge during the game. I remember the game against Trossell in GCCG champs when he was playing very slow, and it was event with time limit. The reason i didnt call for DQ him was i organized this event i didnt want to DQ my opponent.

I hope Sauron's slow playing doesnt mean stalling, maybe just a little bit slower. Anyway if somebody can be a judge on sunday i will be thankful. Of course i dont accept his attitude and if there will be real problem with stalling im going to solve it.

Will judges be available for all games or am I getting special treatment? What applies to me should apply to everyone. There could be other slow players out there in the tournament, who just aren't speaking up.

And how do you plan on solving it? I would like to know, so if I play in a game and my opponent is doing the same, I would like the same whatever applied fairly and evenly.

Also none of these were placed in the rules of the tournament. And as everyone keeps claiming well this is how the tournament has always been run, I claim that since none of this was set in the rules, then none of this should be allowed to be added either. The same set of rules should be applied. How funny people want to change things afterwards.

[Muad'Dib]

Special situtions need special rullings. We talk about judging your games because you announce you will play slow. I dont want to do it but if your opponent requires it why not. Why not judge for all games?because noboby announces to play slow, except you.

I really dont want this all discussion till we see how you play. Maybe its not necessary.


Anyway the most sad part of this disccusion is people will think twice next time before join event without time limit, escpecially if you play.

[Sauron]

Special situtions need special rullings. We talk about judging your games because you announce you will play slow. I dont want to do it but if your opponent requires it why not. Why not judge for all games?because noboby announces to play slow, except you.

I really dont want this all discussion till we see how you play. Maybe its not necessary.


Anyway the most sad part of this disccusion is people will think twice next time before join event without time limit, escpecially if you play.

How is this a special situation? I'm playing within the rules of the tournament and game, I'm not cheating, I'm playing legally. People may not like what I'm doing but rules should be applied to all participants equally. If a judge is required for my game, then a judge should be required for all games. Would the situation be any different if I had kept quiet and did it at game time? At least now people are talking and discussing and have an idea of what's coming.

I'm glad if my discussion causes people to think about tournament structure, format, etc. And if people want to not play because of me so be it. I don't let other players dictate whether I play or not. If the troublesome players caused me to not play if they were in a tournament I would have stopped playing ages ago.

People asked me last year to bring it up sooner, well I did and it wasn't debated, no discussion just slam that's it. Well you live with your choices. I'm ready to do what I must and if it means I get disqualifed so be it, my team is aware it's a possibility, I warned them and they have accepted it and still wanted me on their team.

People have been saying if I don't like the way the tournament is structured don't play in it. I say if you don't like the way I play within the rules of the tournament, then don't play in it.

[Muad'Dib]

Special situation - suspect of stalling. This event is played without time limit but in my opinion this rulling

Players that Stall-If an opponent is believed to be stalling for purposeful gain, or if an opponent is believed to be stalling through a lack of respect for or sensitivity to the time limit, the player can petition the tournament coordinator to observe the game. If the coordinator observes that the opponent is stalling more than what is reasonable and necessary, the coordinator can call the game in favor of the non-stalling player.

works for all tournaments, not only for these with limit. You should respect your opponent and his time, so threating "i will play slow" is lack of decorum.

Will all opinions etc i suggest to wait till first Sauron's game. Sorry Agus but you will be a tester if your opponent plays annoyingly slow.

I'm not cheating, I'm playing legally.

Yes but its like in european football - nobody likes to play against Italy, they dont cheat but all the time use some gaps, misunderstandings etc. They dont do anything against rules but...

You are only the only one complaining, rest players play every year without word about limit. So you accept the will of majority and also play fair (without stalling) or organize your own tournament with time limit. You cant force rest people to play the way you want. Do you believe your attitude brings new players into tournament games? There are some new players on gccg but if i were them, i wouldnt play any tournament after reading this discussion.

[Balin]

I'm ready to do what I must and if it means I get disqualifed so be it, my team is aware it's a possibility, I warned them and they have accepted it and still wanted me on their team.

This is interesting. I'd like to know Bert and Marcos' thoughts, in their own words. If they really support your behaviour, well, again I'd like both of them to said it, please, I'd really appreciate that. Just to know who is here to play an old game just for fun, and who is here to annoy people, preventing others to play (as Wolfgang pointed out).

[Sauron]

I'm ready to do what I must and if it means I get disqualifed so be it, my team is aware it's a possibility, I warned them and they have accepted it and still wanted me on their team.

This is interesting. I'd like to know Bert and Marcos' thoughts, in their own words. If they really support your behaviour, well, again I'd like both of them to said it, please, I'd really appreciate that. Just to know who is here to play an old game just for fun, and who is here to annoy people, preventing others to play (as Wolfgang pointed out).

I don't know if they support my decision on how to play, but they are aware of it like I said and still wanted me on their team. They are free to post here if they like. That's up to them though.

I'm not here to annoy people, I'm not here to prevent others from playing, I'm here to play and I'm here to get something chaanged and fixed.

Do people even realize my actions aren't even about this tournament, but for tournaments in general? If you don't want to have a time limit fine, but there needs to exists a mechanism in place to handle slow play in general.

[marcos]

As I already said to most of you, i think Brian has a point but i don't share his way of protesting. I've also played 4-5 hours games when your opponent takes about 25 minutes per turn and it is really annoying.
Anyways, i rather stay out of the discussion this time, and wait to see what happens. And yes, it is true that he warned us of this possibilty, but still we consider that he can play in a nice way . Agus and Pawel, if you read previous years discussions i already been in both of your positions (as Brian's opponent and as tournament coordinator), i'd suggest to wait.

If you don't want to have a time limit fine, but there needs to exists a mechanism in place to handle slow play in general.

This is the real point about all this, if you ask me.