Playing Against Minion - Strategic Highlights

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Theo
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I've run into many players that have enjoyed all-hero games for some time while having little to no experience playing against minion. To help orient, I've compiled a short list of Things to Keep in Mind when learning to play against minions. This is not meant to be a comprehensive list of differences, but just highlights that I thought most affect strategic decisions. As a way to ease into playing as or against minion, consider participating in the All-Expansions Seal Collection event starting in a week: viewtopic.php?f=133&t=4585.

Rules:
  • Minion characters that would normally be discarded on a corruption check are tapped instead. Ringwraith characters ignore corruption but cannot use items.
  • Minion players always have 5 additional unused general influence that cannot be used to control characters. Additionally, influence attempts across alignments have a -5 penalty.
  • Successful strikes from detainment attacks tap instead of wound. Detainment attacks cannot be defeated. The following attacks become detainment against minion companies:
    * Keyed to a Dark-domain (by name or symbol).
    * Keyed to a Shadow-land (by name or symbol) if man, orc, troll, or undead.
    * Keyed to a Darkhaven, Dark-hold, or Shadow-hold (by name or symbol). However, these six Shadow-holds state otherwise: Moria, Under-gates, Under-leas, Dead Marshes, Shelob's Lair, Goblin-gate.
    * Nazgul attacks (always).
    * Agent attacks.
    * Spider of the Morlat permanent-event attacks.
  • Creatures without an * are worth no MP to minions, although they can be used as trophies by full-blooded orcs and trolls.
  • These hazards do not affect minion players (and can't be played against them): All hazard events that require an agent, Bane of the Ithil-stone, The Black Enemy's Wrath, Foul Fumes, In the Heart of His Realm, Mordor in Arms, Mûmak, Worn and Famished.
  • The following cards can't be played against Balrog players, but against Balrog may be removed from hand at any time to bring any card from sideboard into the play deck: The Balrog (Ally), The Black Council, Durin’s Bane, Balrog of Moria, Reluctant Final Parting.
Further Comments:
  • It is possible for Ringwraith players to journey no further than their starting Darkhavens to play 1 MP factions, or (even tapped) Dark-holds to play 1 MP non-unique items and allies. They also have plenty of places to play 2 (or even some higher) MP resources without traveling in any Wilderness, Border-land, or Free-domain. This can make hindering via creatures difficult, but also zero risk with non-* against companies without orcs or trolls.
  • They only have two major items worth 2 MP, and both are unique. Other than some factions (dragons or three West of the Misty Mountains), their resources that are worth more than 3 points all require another card (gold ring or opponent character), storing at Barad-dur, or playing at the Under-gates or Under-leas. This means they often have less potential than heroes for large, unforseen MP swings.
  • As meager balance to corruption resistance, minion items often give one more corruption for the amount of MP. Corruption can be particularly useful against rings because their basic gold rings (while worth 2 MP) give 4 corruption and force corruption checks each turn.
  • They have worse event support for influence and corruption.
  • Orcs and Trolls tend to have higher prowess and body for their mind and skills. Company vs. Company Combat is always a threat.
  • A few minion resources can also force your characters at the same site as their company to make corruption (and body) checks. These occur during your opponent's turn, when you cannot normally play resource cards or tap to support corruption.
Does anyone have other generic strategy insights to add?
Last edited by Theo on Mon Jul 11, 2022 4:40 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Konrad Klar
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Theo wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 5:25 pm Successful strikes from detainment attacks tap instead of wound. Detainment attacks cannot be defeated. The following attacks become detainment against minion companies:
Detainment attacks from creature cannot be defeated.
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Theo
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Konrad Klar wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 8:22 am Detainment attacks from creature cannot be defeated.
Are you referencing how the rules only define "Defeating an Attack" for creatures? If the criteria didn't generalize, King Under the Mountain and Returned Exiles wouldn't be playable, Redoubled Force final line would be meaningless, etc., etc.
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Konrad Klar
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I do not suggest that only attacks from creature may be defeated and other may not.
I say that detainment attacks not from creature may be defeated.

It is so written in Lidless Eye manual. I do not have access to the HDDs of my PC at the moment, so sorry for lack of citation.
In the same manual it is written that Wizard player does not receive MPs for defeating detainment attack or attack with asterisk. So it is foreseen that such attacks may be defeated (if it is not sloppy language).
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Theo
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MELE wrote:A Wizard player does not receive kill marshalling points for defeating... a detainment attack.
This is still true if a wizard player cannot defeat a detainment attack.

We have no knowledge of how any attack may be defeated except for creature attacks. We also know that there exist non-creature attacks that can be defeated. On what should we base the criteria for defeating any non-creature attack other than the criteria for defeating a creature attack?
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Konrad Klar
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Theo wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 5:35 am On what should we base the criteria for defeating any non-creature attack other than the criteria for defeating a creature attack?
Mechanics is the same as for defeating an attack from creature.
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Theo
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Right. This is when I reference your first response. My generalization is the deduction from the combination of:
Konrad Klar wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 7:33 am
Theo wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 5:35 am On what should we base the criteria for defeating any non-creature attack other than the criteria for defeating a creature attack?
Mechanics is the same as for defeating an attack from creature.
Konrad Klar wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 8:22 am Detainment attacks from creature cannot be defeated.
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Konrad Klar
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Lawyer mode?

Detainment attacks are described generally, but detainment attack by hazard creature is mentioned particularly.
DEFEATING AN ATTACK
An attack by a hazard creature is defeated if it is not a detainment attack and all of its strikes directed against (i.e.,
assigned to) a company are defeated.
If even one of the strikes was canceled or ineffectual, the attack is not defeated. If the attack is canceled, the attack is
not defeated. A canceled attack has no effect on the defending company (though the company is considered in its
history to have faced it). A detainment attack from a creature is never defeated and the creature's card is always
discarded after the attack is resolved.
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Konrad Klar
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To be honest.
Konrad Klar wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 8:37 am In the same manual it is written that Wizard player does not receive MPs for defeating detainment attack or attack with asterisk. So it is foreseen that such attacks may be defeated (if it is not sloppy language).
Lidless Eye wrote:Note: A Wizard player does not receive marshalling points for defeating a creature with an * next to its marshalling
point
No word about defeating a detainment attack. :(
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Konrad Klar
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Theo wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 5:25 pm Does anyone have other generic strategy insights to add?
Agent characters.
Some of them have multiple home sites. May be useful to use them to cancel AAs at home sites.
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Theo
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That's playing as minion, not playing against minion! :P
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Vastor Peredhil
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what for Dwar, Ren, & Akhorahil decks focussing on targeting hero companies with CvCC or Corruption/CvCC combo decks, though less a problem in sealed format ;)
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Theo
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Yes, I hope so! Good one in general though... I imagine that for most of us it was a hard surprise to learn on the fly.
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CDavis7M
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A pretty good list. And yes, I think that most MECCG players are happily playing METW and METD.

The detainment rules are easy to misremember at first. It's shadow-lands where you (the minion player) think you might be safe but aren't! Or, as the hazard player, you need to remember this also. Wolves, Drakes, and Spiders can hit hard. But also, don't be afraid to just run your undead strategy even though it's detainment. Minion Players will not be running Skies of Fire and are often running Doors so you'll be pumped up! Bring out your Barrow wight.

One neat "trick" is playing the prisoner hazards since they work even if the strike is detainment. One catch is that the spider prisoner hazard requires a R&L which cannot be played against companies in Mordor since there is no R&L to use (there are some R&L adjacent to the outer-Mordor shadowlands).

Another neat trick (I think) are the Big Bad Agents with special abilities. These are all detainment but they just sit there (boosted prowess at their homesite) and do their thing turn after turn. You know Baduila is good but Golodhros can just tap and make an influence attempt against that troll leader controlling multiple factions every turn. Even though the attempt against the faction rolls against 0, it's still hard to beat the influence, but you might have several tries to get it. The Grimburgoth comes in at Dol Guldur and can basically tap 2 characters. And these tap-actions can be done once, then you can use 1 agent action to untap the agent and do it again. Taladhan also chooses defender and but discards items (defenders choice) from the company. Brutal. And minions don't have the same anti-agent resources that heroes have.

I think people generally like Heedless Revelry since it taps everyone else out. I also like some cards that I think most people don't like. I like Silent Watcher vs minion. I think it's just fun. If you like rolling dice, Veils Flung away is fun. I guess my point is, don't let the detainment thing ruin your fun. There's still plenty of fun to have against companies in Mordor.
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Konrad Klar
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Konrad Klar wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 1:56 am To be honest.
Konrad Klar wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 8:37 am In the same manual it is written that Wizard player does not receive MPs for defeating detainment attack or attack with asterisk. So it is foreseen that such attacks may be defeated (if it is not sloppy language).
Lidless Eye wrote:Note: A Wizard player does not receive marshalling points for defeating a creature with an * next to its marshalling
point
No word about defeating a detainment attack. :(
Lodless Eyes wrote:MARSHALLING POINTS
A Wizard player does not receive kill marshalling points for defeating a creature with an * next to its marshalling points
or for defeating a detainment attack.
If a hero company defeats an attack by a Ringwraith's Dragon faction, the hero receives its marshalling points as kill
marshalling points.
There is... :)
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
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