Defeating a dragon at home without Sacrifice of Form..

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Lake Town Geezer
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Defeating a dragon at home without Sacrifice of Form..

Post by Lake Town Geezer »

OK, so say I want to be certain of defeating a dragon at home manifestation without using sacrifice of form (because I want my wizard to use his DI to control characters). What are my options?

Let's say the at home manifestation is Smaug: so 2 strikes 18/8.

'The Old Thrush' gets played first - so -3 prowess and body to Smaug. He is now 15/5 for the attack.

The company comprises Gandalf, Bilbo, Thrain (to become King under the Mountain), and Sam.

Gandalf, my wizard wields Wormsbane - so he gets +4 prowess and -2 body to the dragon strike.
He also has Bilbo under his DI who taps and plays a 'No waiting to wonder', giving another +4 to Gandalf's prowess and another -1 to the body for the strike. So now Gandalf automatically defeats his strike as his prowess is basically 14 and he will roll a 2 minimum. Plus the body of Smaug gets another -3 for the strike, giving effectively 2. So almost automatic defeat for the strike.

The second strike is going to be taken by Thrain (7 prowess), who wields Aiglos (+2 prowess and also -2 to Smaug's body). Sam also taps and plays a second 'No waiting to wonder', so another +4 prowess and -1 body for the strike. So total 7 + 6 = 13 prowess - just needs to roll a 3 to defeat the strike. The body is also effectively then now 2 again for the strike - so virtually an auto-fail.

So all in all, with this group Smaug at Home has almost no chance. Maybe I could also discard two black arrows to be safe (so another -2 prowess and body to Smaug), or bring a few dwarf friends along (unexpected partying*) who could tap to help defeat the strikes?

Any other suggestions? I just am thinking of this as in other threads most people suggest Sac of Form to achieve a Dragon at Home kill, but there are obvious disadvantages. I also like this party as it uses just 9 GI, and could actually be the starting party - Thrain plus two hobbits for 18 GI and Gandalf joining at Lorien, then taking on the hobbits with his DI.

(*edit: just realised this wouldn't work with two hobbits).

p.s. also Bilbo could carry Aiglos until just before the Lonely Mountain raid to minimise corruption risk - although I would also suggest three copies of 'Wizard Uncloaked' in the deck to remove corruption permanent events in the field. Gandalf uses Wormsbane with just 2 CP rather than Aiglos with 3 CP because basically you cannot afford to lose the wizard to corruption or it is game over.
Last edited by Lake Town Geezer on Thu Nov 17, 2022 5:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Vastor Peredhil
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Re: Defeating a dragon at home without Sacrifice of Form..

Post by Vastor Peredhil »

Deadly Dart? anyone, it gets overlooked by heros too often, but can easily gotten with the many cards that get minor items

kings way is, fail on "Burglary" with Fram carrying Wormsbane ;)

also Not at Home

or Sated Beast can help reduce strikes depending on Gates or Doors availability
Lake Town Geezer
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Re: Defeating a dragon at home without Sacrifice of Form..

Post by Lake Town Geezer »

Vastor Peredhil wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:20 pm Deadly Dart? anyone, it gets overlooked by heros too often, but can easily gotten with the many cards that get minor items

kings way is, fail on "Burglary" with Fram carrying Wormsbane ;)

also Not at Home

or Sated Beast can help reduce strikes depending on Gates or Doors availability
I like the sated beast idea: downside is DoN would need to be in play, which could be prevented by the opponent with Twilights etc. Could be really useful though as Smaug would only have one attack in this example, which makes things easier (no need to get either Aiglos or Wormsbane).

I guess the only issue with the cheeky burglary failure is the body rolls would be higher as, presumably a hobbit couldn't use 'No waiting to wonder'? Or maybe they could? In this case it is the best approach definitely (and also makes burglary very powerful) - of course if one character is facing, say, three strikes (the normal auto strike at the site plus two at home auto strikes) and didn't tap to face any they would need to have a pretty remarkable prowess)? Saying that if you have Wormsbane and the old thrush you have -5 body, so Smaug would need to roll 4 or above twice to fail the body checks which isn't too bad.
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CDavis7M
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Re: Defeating a dragon at home without Sacrifice of Form..

Post by CDavis7M »

If we are excluding cards that rely on environments then I think the true King's Way is a combination of Old Thrush, Black Arrow, and Alert the Folk for -4 to the prowess and -4 to the body of the attack, and +2-7 to the prowess of the characters in the company. Bard already comes with 2 prowess so you only need to roll an 11 which is three times as likely as a 12. The body checks are just the victory lap. Or instead of Sated/Quietlands you could pick a stronger fighter and use Many Foes. I've also seen Staff Asunder. But where's the challenge? This game is pretty much a test of your dice rolling abilities.

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Vastor Peredhil wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:20 pm kings way is, fail on "Burglary" with Fram carrying Wormsbane ;)
Smells funny. Burglary states "the character must face all automatic-attacks alone" while King Under the Mountain has the condition: "if his company has defeated." A bit odd for a character to be alone against an attack and yet others are considered to have defeated the attack. Especially as a company simply means "one or more characters." Indeed the CRF entry on Burglary Attempts states "The character who fails the burglary roll must face the automatic-attack as though he were a one-character company." That's fits my understanding of what "alone" means in the context of the game mechanics.
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Mordakai
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Re: Defeating a dragon at home without Sacrifice of Form..

Post by Mordakai »

Interesting that, once more, game mechanics go against Tolkien works, as Thorin did exactly that, take advantage of other guy's dragon killing work to post himself as King Under the Mountain :lol:
C'mon, not the Elves of Lindon AGAIN...
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CDavis7M
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Re: Defeating a dragon at home without Sacrifice of Form..

Post by CDavis7M »

Mordakai wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:06 pm Interesting that, once more, game mechanics go against Tolkien works, as Thorin did exactly that, take advantage of other guy's dragon killing work to post himself as King Under the Mountain :lol:
Especially as Thorin was discarded by corruption and not even in play at all. I was trying to look for other instances of discarding by corruption. Clearly Denethor fails his roll by 2+. Boromir is back in play so quickly I don't know what to think. Frodo's is definitely a fail that was negated by Tookish Blood or the like.

As for passed checks, I like Aragorn's in the Pony and only picked up on it recently. I get the impression that he prepared long for that moment. Galadriel's success is more obvious. And of course allies are immune to corruption.
Lake Town Geezer
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Re: Defeating a dragon at home without Sacrifice of Form..

Post by Lake Town Geezer »

"And of course allies are immune to corruption."

Beautifully exemplified by Tom playing with he One Ring in his house!

Also, Radagast is probably a fallen wizard IMHO in the books - corrupted by nature (cannot say really about the blue wizards). Saruman is clearly fallen of course: I just cannot bring myself to design a deck around a 'hero' as opposed to fallen Saruman. Equally I couldn't possibly bring myself to play a fallen Gandalf.
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Theo
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Re: Defeating a dragon at home without Sacrifice of Form..

Post by Theo »

Vastor Peredhil wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:20 pm Deadly Dart? anyone, it gets overlooked by heros too often, but can easily gotten with the many cards that get minor items
Eh, I'm dubious hero resources could manipulate the Dart.

Maybe too obvious, but my #1 suggestion is to go after Bairanax instead of Smaug. :roll:

Earcaraxe has the advantage of being reduced by More Alert than Most. (You simply specified wanting to defeat an at home dragon.)

Alternatively, an easy solution for not worrying about Twilights hitting Quiet Lands or Gates of Morning-based reduction is to set up Balance Between Powers in the Org phase before you commit to moving.
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Konrad Klar
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Re: Defeating a dragon at home without Sacrifice of Form..

Post by Konrad Klar »

1.
viewtopic.php?f=144&t=3375
Those who voted for Option A probably would say that hero resources cannot manipulate Deadly Dart.
But it is fairer to speak for myself. I have voted for Option B.

2.
2nd effect of Not at Home, Dark Quarrels.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
Vastor Peredhil
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Re: Defeating a dragon at home without Sacrifice of Form..

Post by Vastor Peredhil »

http://70.180.210.3:1042/img/cards/MELE ... lydart.jpg

nothing dubious, it is a hero card in a hero deck, just cannot be included in pool
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CDavis7M
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Re: Defeating a dragon at home without Sacrifice of Form..

Post by CDavis7M »

Vastor Peredhil wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:38 pm http://70.180.210.3:1042/img/cards/MELE ... lydart.jpg

nothing dubious, it is a hero card in a hero deck, just cannot be included in pool
Yes, Deadly Dart IS a hero resource in a hero deck.

And at first I thought that it how DC "dual" cards worked -- they would be a hero card in a hero deck and a minion card in a minion deck. But it's actually a bit different: dual resources are just "played" on-alignment instead of being that alignment in the deck (presumably it counts as both hero and minion in the deck). But also, "a dual resource is considered both hero and minion resource for the purpose of interpreting hazards." Seems a bit off given that it was played as one and not the other.
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Konrad Klar
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Re: Defeating a dragon at home without Sacrifice of Form..

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:44 pm [...] dual resources are just "played" on-alignment instead of being that alignment in the deck [...]
I agree.
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