Company Composition & Returning to Site of Origin

[zarathustra]

Another thing that came up as I edit the rules:

Note: If two companies end up at a non-*-Haven site and combining those companies would violate the limitations on company composition, one of the companies that just moved must return to its site of origin. Similarly, an effect that causes such a violation is cancelled (e.g., We Have Come to Kill).

I had always played that the returning to site of origin happened immediately when movement for the illegal-making company was declared (i.e., it was the first action declared in their mh-phase, like an extant Snowstorm). It would seem, however, from this note that it is not till the end of all mh-phases that they are sent back.

In fact, this makes sense. After all, you could lose some characters in one or both of the companies (one of the leaders, for instance), resulting in the combined company being legal.

Does anyone know when/if this is clarified/overruled elsewhere?

[miguel]

Hmm. I've always played it like this, according to the MELE rules. Though a situation like this hasn't come up very often.

[tharasix]

This is the reason why you now lose your site phase if you're sent back to your site of origin. A gentleman used this rule to essentially squat at a site while still drawing cards by moving two companies to the same site, violating composition, then bouncing back.

[zarathustra]

I guess the reason I thought you got bounced sooner is this note from MELE:

Note: This means that your Ringwraith’s company may not move to the same non-Darkhaven site as one of your other companies, since this would result in your Ringwraith joining with other characters.

It sounds from this like you can't even declare movement that would give you an illegal company.... Probably just an infelicitous wording though.

[zarathustra]

Had an interesting case tonight:

I was playing a squatting troll-chief/halbarad combo at the Ettenmores with Hidden Haven. The company was of course legal, since they were at a haven site. But then Brian played Nature's Revenge on my site. Now it's not a haven....

Presumably what happens is that one of the two must be discarded, but what? I see 4 options:

(1) Immediately,
(2) Start of the next phase (site phase, in this case),
(3) Start of my next turn, or
(4) My next org phase.

Any thoughts?

[miguel]

In CoE Digest #16 there was a ruling that might help:

17. What if a character comes into play at a Ringwraiths site? Do the non-ringwraith characters gain the bonuses of being in the same company as the Ringwraith (eg. +2 to corruption checks)?
*** Ringwraiths and non-ringwraith companies at non-darkhavens are never joined and may never join at such sites. The other type of company must still attempt to move to another site the following m/h phase of the turn they are played at the non-darkhaven site. If both companies are still there at the end of the movement/hazard phase, discard the non-Ringwraith company (ie. Roadblock).

Since Troll and Halbarad are in the same company already, I'd say one or the other must be discarded immediately.

[zarathustra]

"The other type of company"? What does that mean...?

I guess the reference is to Adunaphel the RW's special ability? Makes sense.....

[miguel]

"The other type of company"? What does that mean...?

I guess the reference is to Adunaphel the RW's special ability? Makes sense.....

What what?

"The other type of company" to me simply means there are two types of companies, "one" and the "other" (rw and non-rw, not necessarily in that order).

[Konrad Klar]

Had an interesting case tonight:

I was playing a squatting troll-chief/halbarad combo at the Ettenmores with Hidden Haven. The company was of course legal, since they were at a haven site. But then Brian played Nature's Revenge on my site. Now it's not a haven....

Presumably what happens is that one of the two must be discarded, but what? I see 4 options:

(1) Immediately,
(2) Start of the next phase (site phase, in this case),
(3) Start of my next turn, or
(4) My next org phase.

Any thoughts?

Note: If two companies end up at a non-Darkhaven site and combining those companies would violate the limitations on company composition, one of the companies that just moved must return to its site of origin. Similarly, an effect that causes such a violation is cancelled (e.g. We Have Come to Kill).

Should not be effect of Nature's Revange canceled? It causes such a violation.

[miguel]

Should not be effect of Nature's Revange canceled? It causes such a violation.

Indeed, good catch.

[Sauron]

Weird.

But it's not 2 companies joining, it's 1 company with illegal composition.

[Konrad Klar]

Weird.

But it's not 2 companies joining, it's 1 company with illegal composition.

We Have Come to Kill does not cause 2 companies joining too.

[zarathustra]

One more nail in the coffin for Nature's Revenge...

[zarathustra]

OK, so it looks like the initial post in this thread needs no ruling. However, Konrad found something worth putting into a digest. Therefore...

If the play of Nature's Revenge on a Wizard-haven would cause an illegal company composition, then Nature's Revenge may not be played. This result is due to the MELE standard rules concerning company composition:

Note: If two companies end up at a non-Darkhaven site and combining those companies would violate the limitations on company composition, one of the companies that just moved must return to its site of origin. Similarly, an effect that causes such a violation is cancelled (e.g. We Have Come to Kill).

For instance, if I have a company at a Hidden Haven Ettenmores containing Halbarad and a Troll Chief, then my opponent cannot play Nature's Revenge on Ettenmores because it would result in an illegal company composition.

[Konrad Klar]

I think that the same applies to the News of the Shire (if Bag End is Wizard-haven). That is News of the Shire cannot be stored if it would cause an illegal company composition.