ACM / WHCTK vs. Rules / Other Cards

[zarathustra]

Take a look here for some background.

The basic questions seem to be four in number:

(1) Which rules are overridden by A Chance Meeting?
(2) Which rules are overridden by We Have Come to Kill?
(3) Which card texts are overridden by A Chance Meeting?
(4) Which card texts are overridden by We Have Come to Kill?


The rules in question are:
(A) Limit of 1 on the number of characters played per turn.
(B) Limit to organization phase for playing characters.
(C) Limit on FW player's ability to play orcs / trolls: "You may not play Orc and Troll characters until you have played the appropriate card (e.g., Bad Company)."
(D) Limit on FW player's ability to play characters with a mind greater than 5.
(E) Limit on minion player's ability to play RW followers.
(F) Limit on minion & FW player's ability to play agents outside of their home sites.

The card texts in question are:
(a) Character cards that say the character can only be played at his home site (e.g., hobbits, Fram, Tuma, Burat, Wuluag).
(b) Mask Torn's limit on the mind of character a FW player may play.
(c) Ringwraith character cards that allow ringwraith followers to be played (viz., The Witch-King, Khamul, Uvatha).
(d) Helm of Her Secrecy.

Did I miss anything? I'd like to settle this once and for all, so let's make sure we have all of the relevant details before debating.

[Jambo]

To aid, here's some of the relevant text from cards in question and associated crf entries:

Short-events:

A character (even a Hobbit) may be brought into play with direct influence at any Free-hold, Border-hold, or Ruins & Lairs.

Playable only at a Darkhaven during the organization phase on your Ringwraith's company. You may bring any Ringwraith followers into play with your Ringwraith's company as you have in your hand and have direct influence to control.

A character may be brought into play under general or direct influence at any Shadow-hold, Ruins & Lairs, or Border-hold. This does not count against the one character per turn limit.
Crf:
· We Have Come to Kill may be used to bring in agents, but not Ringwraiths.
· You must have enough influence to control the character to play this card.

Characters:

As your Ringwraith, one Ringwraith follower in his company may be controlled with no influence. You may bring this follower into play during your organization phase.

As your Ringwraith, up to two Ringwraith followers in his company may be controlled with no influence. You may bring these followers into play during separate organization phases.

He may join another Ringwraith's company during your organization phase and requires no influence to control.

You may bring Aragorn II into play with Strider's company, removing Strider from the game and automatically transferring all cards on Strider to Aragorn II.

Unless he is one of the starting characters, he may only be brought into play at his home site.

He may not be one of the starting characters. He may only be brought into play at his home site.

May not be included with a starting company. May be played on the same turn Bûrat and/or Wûluag is played.

Miscellaneous:

If Eowyn is in your hand, this card is playable on a company facing an attack (before strikes are assigned) -- the company must contain a character with Edoras as a home site. If enough influence is available to control her, Eowyn may be played with (i.e., joins) the company.
Crf:
· You can play multiple Helms of Her Secrecy in one chain of effects. The player should make sure that he does not take
the option of playing Éowyn out of his hand until the first copy declared is resolved.

Special: Unless this site is a character's home site, a non-Orc, non-Troll character may not be brought into play at this site.

Each Black Horse in your Ringwraith's company allows you to play one Ringwraith follower who requires no direct influence to control.

Playable on a minion company. One agent minion may be played with target company at a Darkhaven - place this card with the agent. -1 to his mind to a minimum of 1. This card may be played with a starting company in lieu of a minor item. When played as such, reveal it when starting companies are determined as if it were a character.
Crf:
· Card Erratum: Replace "minion company" with "company."
· Does not allow you to start with a character that says he cannot be in the starting company.

Instead of a normal character, during your organization phase you may bring into play one character (including a minion agent) with up to a 6 mind. Place this card with the character. -1 to his mind to a minimum of 1. Such a character may also be in your starting company.
Crf:
· Does not allow starting with a character that specifies it may not be in the starting company.

You may play Orc and Troll characters and include them in your starting company.
Crf:
· Does not allow you to start with a character that says he cannot be in the starting company.

Fallen-wizards may not bring characters with more than 4 mind into play. If a Fallen-wizard has more than 9 stage points, he may not bring characters with more than 3 mind into play.

[Jambo]

This was discussed rather jokingly on GCCG, but maybe it's worth including for reference...

Compare Uvatha's text to Alatar's:

He may join another Ringwraith's company during your organization phase and requires no influence to control.

If in a Haven when a hazard creature is played on another company, he may join that company[...]

If at one of his Wizardhavens when a hazard creature attacks one of your companies, he may immediately join that company.

[zarathustra]

Further background to be had here (RW stuff), here (RW followers), and here (ACM/WHCTK).

[Jambo]

Ok, to get the ball rolling... (long post alert)

Starting with the 3 short-events, ACM, WHCtK and TRT. Currently with the exception of Old Road, short-events without phase restrictions can be played at any time during one’s turn, presuming the card is able to be played in accordance with its own text. ACM and WHCtK do not have phase restrictions on the card, whereas TRT clearly mandates that the RW followers have to be played during the org phase. Does not stating a phase mean that basic character rules stipulating the org phase can be superseded by a short-event (or any other card for that matter). Well, rulings by ICE and NetReps to date suggest this is the case, but for Old Road and faction playing outside of the site phase, an exception has been made.

First step would be to decide if the current rulings allowing ACM and WHCtK to be played outside of the org phase are not going to be under further scrutiny. If these cards continue to supersede the org phase requirement, then perhaps this has ramifications for the other ‘miscellaneous’ character playing cards and perhaps Old Road. (Can Old Road be played during any phase, but the faction still has to be played during site phase?)

Both ACM and WHCtK obviously supersede the basic rules’ site restrictions of haven or homesite. No discrepancies there. ACM is also clear about circumventing the playability restrictions as noted on Hobbits, so in this case ACM clearly trumps the Hobbit text. Nothing is mentioned about Fram Framson, but that was never going to happen because he was introduced in a later set. Can we assume it would have been ICE’s intention for these to supersede restrictions noted on characters? Strictly speaking simply from the card texts, there’s nothing to substantiate whether ACM and WHCtK innately supersede Fram’s restriction and whether WHCtK does the same for Hobbits. In fact the only reference I could find in the crf regarding cards superseding other cards was under the ‘Attack’ section of the entry for ‘Movement/Hazard Phase’:

There are three levels of cards which reassign strikes. Alatar is the top level, and overrides any other conflicting card which changes the assignment of strikes. Cards which say they "always" or "in all cases" change the assignment of strikes are the next level, and override any other conflicting effects except Alatar. Cards which say they change the assignment of strikes "regardless of..." certain factors are the third level, and are overridden by all other effects from conflicting cards. If two effects on the same level conflict, the resource overrides the hazard.

Underline mine.

Not ideal I know, since it’s only pertaining to strike assignment! I couldn’t find anything on how to deal with a situation where the effects of one resource are in direct conflict with another resource (e.g. Fram), a site (e.g. Carn Dum) or even a hazard (e.g. Mask Torn). To date, rulings have been in favour of ACM and WHCtK. (This is also fairly similar to Nature’s Revenge and the text on Wizardhavens which has been ruled both ways.)

Is there any reason why playability conditions on short-events should work any differently from similar text written on characters, allies or non-short events? Reading the text on Helm of Her Secrecy would imply there isn’t, since otherwise the playing of Eowyn with the company would have to wait to an available org phase (crazy). If there isn’t a good reason then should the same rules governing how ACM and WHCtK work also be applicable to the others? You may find that this small but crucial aspect ends up being the most defining point.

Just as an example, Khamul, The Witch-king, Uvatha, and Thrall of the Voice all clearly stipulate the org phase as a requirement on the card text. Meanwhile Black Horse, Strider, Open to the Summons, and Helm of Her Secrecy do not. Following the lead of ACM and WHCtK, not defining an org phase requirement should mean the effects can be applied in any phase as long as any other restrictions are met. If, however, not defining a phase still means the character playing rules have to be followed (as faction playing rules are for Old Road), then this would mean all being restricted to the org phase by default.

So,

This is an example of where everything is based on the current rules for ACM and WHCtK and, with the exception of the org phase restriction being superseded, the standard rules are only overridden where clearly stated on the card or by a mechanism of the card’s effect (this still conflicts with Old Road, and as you'll see several other CoE digest rulings!):

• Which rules are overridden by ACM: Homesite/haven, one per turn, org phase
  Which rules are overridden by WHCtK: Homesite/haven, one per turn, org phase
  Which rules are overridden by TRT: Homesite, one per turn

The following is on the assumption that no difference can be reasonably justified between short-events and other resources.

• Which rules are overridden by Khamul: One per turn
  Which rules are overridden by The Witch-king: One per turn
  Which rules are overridden by Uvatha: One per turn, homesite/haven?
  Which rules are overridden by Strider: Homesite/haven (even being at a site), one per turn, org phase (strictly speaking it’s a replacement and could happen during the m/h phase)
  Which rules are overridden by Black Horse: One per turn (as many as you have free BHs), org phase
  Which rules are overridden by Helm of Her Secrecy: All it would seem (since playability is based on when an attack occurs)
  Which rules are overridden by Thrall of the Voice: Mind restriction, agents (strictly speaking there's no reference to orcs/trolls. Orcs and trolls require Bad Company)
  Which rules are overridden by Open to the Summons: One per turn, org phase, homesite
  Which rules are overridden by Bad Company: Orcs/trolls

If the org phase restriction wasn’t as a matter of course being obviated for ACM and WHCtK, then many of these would naturally see much more standard playing conditions in line with standard rules. BH and OttS would then need org phase. Helm of Her Secrecy and Strider are both special cases. One is dependent on an attack and one is a replacement, although whether that in itself is enough to justify a different interpretation, I’m not sure. If a reasonable justification can be found as to why short-events should be any different then many of the above would also change, this time potentially including Strider and Helm of Her Secrecy.

NB: I believe these override one per turn, simply because you could play a character in the org phase as per normal rules, then apply the card’s effect (e.g. play ACM, use Khamul, play Uvatha, use BH). I believe Bad Company is required for orcs/trolls and that Thrall of the Voice on its own doesn’t circumvent this requirement. Strictly speaking the card’s text only obviates the inability to play agent characters.

• Which card texts are overridden by ACM: Hobbits
  Which card texts are overridden by WHCtK: None
  Which card texts are overridden by TRT: Card Dum
  Which card texts are overridden by Khamul, Uvatha and The Witch-king: None

These are based on the assumption that cards don’t intrinsically have the ability to trump other cards. However, I could see a case for the playability restrictions being superseded by the above, just as long as whatever is ruled is consistent. Because ToTV just enables a character with a higher mind to be played instead of a normal character (up to 5 mind), I couldn’t see how it would override Mask Torn.

The crf already clarifies that Bad Company, Thrall of the Voice and Open to the Summons can’t override playing characters in the starting company which can’t be part of a starting company. This, for me, also backs up the belief that Thrall of the Voice on its own isn’t enough to be used to play an orc or troll. It needs Bad Company.

I’m aware that some of the above contradicts current CoE digests. That may well be unavoidable as you strive for a conclusion. I did try to stick within the confines of the crf. ACM was ruled about in an ICE digest, Old Road in a CoE digest. As they’re conflicting, one could and maybe should be overturned.

[Jambo]

The Trolls brothers are quite interesting too:

May not be included with a starting company. May be played on the same turn Bûrat and/or Wûluag is played.

Does this mean that one could play a Troll brother during the Org phase and then as long as one is at a homesite (Ruins & Lairs) Darkhaven, play one of the others during any phase of the same turn?

[Jambo]

Discussion on Thrall of the Voice here, particularly from page 2 onwards.

[Wacho]

I think we are mixing two issues here. The first is playability of characters with cards such as ACM etc. The second is the play of RW followers. I think these are two different issues because the normal play of characters and RW followers follow different rules. I think we should limit this thread to normal characters and have a different thread for RW followers. In any case I'll make some comments here as far as ACM, etc.

I think ACM and WHCTK override rules A & B, don't override C & D, I'm not addressing E, and I'm unsure about F. As far as card text I think they override a and not b. c & d don't apply here.

As far as some of the other cards mentioned, obviously Helm of Her Secrecy is not limited to org. phase and I don't think the one character per turn applies here either.

Aragorn replacing Strider is similar. It isn't a normal character play. It is a replacement. This is not limited to org. phase and doesn't count to 1 per turn.

Thrall of His Voice is obviously limited to org. phase. It seems to follow the normal procedure for playing characters with the exceptions stated and since it says instead of a normal character the one per turn would apply. I tend to agree with Jamie that this should not allow you to play orcs or trolls. Since you aren't allowed to play characters that say they can't be in starting company this card seems to limit itself to just the exceptions mentioned (6 mind, minion agent).

Open to the Summons -- This one is a little trickier. It doesn't say it is limited to org. phase. I think this was intended, and the play to follow the normal one per turn limit, however this is not said. The wording may give us a clue though. It says a character may be played, however ACM and WHCTK say a character may be brought into play. This seems to indicate to me that for OttS you have to follow the normal rules for bringing characters in to play, whereas ACM and WHCTK override these. It's not very clear though.

I don't think either of these cards would override Mask Torn, or similar cards.

Finally the troll brothers. Obviously they can get around 1 per turn, but I believe are still limited to org. phase.

[Jambo]

Other than agents not being allowed in a starting company (unless accompanied by OttS or TotV), playing agents as characters is only bound by a homesite restriction. I think ACM and WHCtK would therefore encompass agents because they supersede normal site restrictions. Where for non-agent characters this involves homesite and/or darkhaven, for agents this would just be homesite.