[UNIVERSAL] Playing characters from discard pile

[Manuel]

I also found this one on digest 17:

12. Does Lady of the Golden Wood prevent a Balrog from playing characters
from his discard pile? This ability of a Balrog player is listed in the
rules, and I would say that this constitutes 'normal sequence of play' and
is therefore not affected by the Lady.

*** Correct.

I always thought that you can't play characters from discard pile when Lady of the Golden Wood is on the table, and I'm not sure if being in the rules matters or not. Also, I'm not sure about what does it mean with "correct"; is it correct that you can't play characters from discard pile? or is it correct that playing them that way is considered like "normal sequence of play"?

[Konrad Klar]

Normal sequence of play is defined in CRF

Certain cards, effects, and/or rules allow a player to search for cards and add them to his or her hand, play deck, or discard pile outside of the normal sequence of play (i.e., in addition to filling out the hand and drawing cards when a company moves). A player may or may not be required to reveal some or all of the identity of such manipulated cards. If the card manipulated must be a specific type of hazard or resource, then it must be revealed to the opponent. If the card must be either a hazard, resource, or character, then enough of the manipulated card's face must be revealed to
show opponent that it is the correct type. If there are no restrictions on which cards may be manipulated, the manipulated card does not have to be revealed.

According to this definition searching allowed by certain rules is outside of the normal sequence of play.

[Sauron]

Outside of normal play would be outside of the Rules as written in the Rule Book.

Rule Book Rules / CRF / Digest / Whatever = Normal Rules
Cards / Effects / etc = Outside Normal Rules

IE: You can normally move through a wilderness and get to a site, you can't do this if snowstorm is in play. This is outside normal rules.

Lady of the Wood, has no effect on the Balrog's ability to play characters from the discard pile, because it's written as a normal rule.

[zarathustra]

As far as I know, Brian is right that normal sequence = according to the rules booklets. Therefore, playing characters from the discard pile is in the MEBA rules booklet, so it is part of the normal sequence of play.


Konrad: Nice find! However, I feel that the quote you've found is too specific to be used as a definition. According to a literal reading of that quotation, a player cannot use Dark Tryst if Lady of the Golden Wood is in play. Similarly, a player cannot refill his hand after playing Revealed to All Watchers if Bane of the Ithil Stone is in play. In fact, a player could not even discard to draw an extra card during the end of turn phase! This is too restrictive. I therefore feel sure in saying that normal sequence = according to the rules and maintaining that the balrog can play characters from his discard pile even if Lady is in play.

[Konrad Klar]

According to a literal reading of that quotation, a player cannot use Dark Tryst if Lady of the Golden Wood is in play. Similarly, a player cannot refill his hand after playing Revealed to All Watchers if Bane of the Ithil Stone is in play. In fact, a player could not even discard to draw an extra card during the end of turn phase! This is too restrictive.

No, because drawing cards from playdeck is not the same thing as searching through playdeck. Discarding is other thing too.

I see this CRF ruling as accurate, not as too restrictive.

[zarathustra]

Well, if you want to be very literal about it, the Balrog is still OK: he does not search for cards in his discard pile in order to "add them to his or her hand, play deck, or discard pile": he plays them directly from his discard pile. Therefore, the quotation does not apply to the Balrog's character-playing ability.

[Konrad Klar]

So this ruling does not say about Exhalation of Decay, In Great Wrath, because creature is directly played...

Question is: why this ruling says only about cards added to the player's hand, play deck, or discard, and does not mention other cards, played directly from DP, PD, SB? Does it mean that placing special ring item from SB off to the side with Whisper of Rings is inside normal sequence of play?

In my opinion, because main purpose of this ruling is eliminating risk of cheating, which is not possible if searched card is immediately played (if you are putting non-Unded card as result of Exhalation of Decay, then it is just mistake, not cheating, so additional revealing card to oponent would be redundant in this case).
Essential for this topic is fact that according to this ruling also certain rules allows searching outside normal sequence of play, which is defined there as "filling out the hand and drawing cards when a company moves".

[zarathustra]

Essential for this topic is fact that according to this ruling also certain rules allows searching outside normal sequence of play, which is defined there as "filling out the hand and drawing cards when a company moves".

Agreed.

However, "filling out the hand and drawing cards" is not searching, as you yourself pointed out earlier.

Since it would be silly to allow Exhalation of Decay etc. to override Lady of the Golden Wood, I suggest (once again) that the most natural way to understand "the normal sequence of play" is = "according to the rules booklets".

[Konrad Klar]

Since it would be silly to allow Exhalation of Decay etc. to override Lady of the Golden Wood, I suggest (once again) that the most natural way to understand "the normal sequence of play" is = "according to the rules booklets".

There are two separate things:

1. Which manipulated cards should be revealed to opponent.
2. What is "normal sequence of play".

In quoted CRF ruling definition (2) serves purpose of defining of (1).

But what is auxiliary for this CRF ruling is essential for this topic (IMO of course). (1) is not matter of this topic.

Creature attacking as result of Exhalation of Decay is outside of both definitions. Searching for it is not "filling out the hand and drawing cards when a company moves" and it is not card that player can search for and then add to "his or her hand, play deck, or discard pile".

P.S. Konrad Klar cannot be more clear...

[zarathustra]

I fear that I still don't understand.

According to you, the normal sequence of play = drawing cards for the movement of companies? Obviously that's too restrictive, since it would allow Bane of the Ithil Stone to keep players from discarding to draw during the end of turn phase.

According to me, the normal sequence of play = everything written in the rules booklets. You say that the definition of the normal sequence is used in your quotation (2 defines 1). I agree. The question is, though, what is the definition of 2? I have a proposal... what is yours?

[Konrad Klar]

According to you, the normal sequence of play = drawing cards for the movement of companies? Obviously that's too restrictive, since it would allow Bane of the Ithil Stone to keep players from discarding to draw during the end of turn phase.

- Searching for card is not "filling out the hand and drawing cards when a company moves". So it is outside of "normal sequence of play".
- However discardnig/drawing (not only during end-of-turn phase, also as effect of Dark Tryst, Lordly Presence) is both outside of "normal sequence of play" and oustside of actions described in Lady/Bane texts (searching in DP, PD, looking at any portion of DP, PD). So discardnig/drawing is not affected by Lady/Bane. Bringing cards from SB to PD (Smoke Rings etc.) is obviously outside of "normal sequence of play" and fact that it is not affected by Lady/Bane is indisputable.
- Searching for characters in DP is outside "normal sequence of play" and is action described in Lady's texts.

So besides definitions (1) and (2) we have also third factor. Actions canceled by Lady/Bane (3).

Definition (2) in conjunction with (3) prevents Balrog player from searching for characters allowed by rules and does not cancel effects of Dark Tryst/Revealed to All Watchers/Lordly Presence/Long Dark Reach (if Lady/Bane/Flotsam is in play).

[zarathustra]

OK, I've been mulling this over for a while, and I must admit you're reasoning is sound. However, I still don't like it. This reason is this: if you're right, then we suddenly lose a criterion for the normal sequence of play. If we stay with my suggestion, it's simple: normal = as written in rules. If you are right, however, then we only have a negative definition: normal = something other than what's written in the rules. Well, perhaps things are really that bad for us poor rules wizards, but I'm going to need a lot of convincing to admit it. A very good way to convince me would be to suggest a more specific, positive definition of "normal sequence of play". Do you have one in your back pocket?

[Konrad Klar]

Positive for what (or for who)?
As I understand moot point was whether Balrog player ability (described in Balrog rulebook) is within this definition or outside this definition.
Next question was how game will be working if we agree that it is outside.
Rest of effects operating on play deck, discard pile and sideboard are still working. As long as that effects does not involve searching through PD or DP, that are not affected by Bane of The Ithil Stone, Lady of The Golden Wood or Flotsam and Jetsam. Regardless of whether that are "outside if normal sequence of play" or "inside of normal sequence of play".

"You are not normal, my friend, but you are OK.
You are above average."
Does not sound positively?

[zarathustra]

OK, I think my concern was ill-founded. I was confusing 'normal' with 'normal sequence of play' -- they obviously aren't the same. I was worried that ruling in the way you suggest would re-open the can of worms regarding what Durin's Axe is worth to a FW player, among other things. But since 'normal' isn't the same as 'normal sequence of play', that's not going to happen.


Regarding a positive definition, what I mean is this: it would be nice to be able to say that 'normal sequence of play' denotes all and only a certain rules. One easy way to do that is to say that 'normal sequence of play' denotes all and only everything in the rules inserts. You have been arguing against this interpretation pretty effectively. What I'd like is to replace the set (everything in the rules inserts) with a different set (X) such that every member of (X) is part of the normal sequence of play and nothing outside (X) is part of the normal sequence of play. That's what I mean by a positive definition. Perhaps we can't get one, but it would be nice to have....

[Konrad Klar]

Positive definition of normal sequence of play:
Drawing cards for movement at the start of m/h phase and filling out of hand, when hand is reconciled.

This means that any effect allowing player to search through or look at any portion playdeck or discard pile is outside of the normal sequence of play.
In this situation text "all effects are automatically canceled which allow minion player to search through or look at any portion of his playdeck or discard pile outside of the normal sequence of play" may make reasoned confusion.
Why not just "all effects are automatically canceled which allow minion player to search through or look at any portion of his playdeck or discard pile'? Would not be shorter phrase sufficient?
Of course yes.
But the same applies to the phrase used in minion The Arkenstone (errated).
"...you may discard this item to force discard of the Dwarf (and all non-follower cards he controls)."
Why not just "...you may discard this item to force discard of the Dwarf"? After all if card is removed from active play, all cards played on it are discarded.

So such style of wording is just example of redundant text (in case of The Arkenstone maybe caused by fact that it was reduction from more powerfull unerrated version). Second (hypothetical) possibility is that ICE using such wording was creating some safety margin, for purposes redefining term of "of normal sequence of play" and introducing possibility of controlling other cards than followers and cards played on character. (Leucaruth At Home affecting Dragon Roused manifestation is example of such process).