Nature's Revenge and Vile Fumes vs havens

[zarathustra]

We ruled way back in the past that Nature's Revenge eliminates the cancellation effects of a wizard haven. Now Joe Bisz has asked a related question:

Does Vile Fumes remove the attack-canceling ability at Balrog
havens, and any other haven effects, or does it merely turn it into a
Ruins and Lairs but all of its normal haven effects still apply?

Here's what I said in reply:

I'm not sure on this one. It's related to the question whether Nature's Revenge removes all cancellation effects at a wizard-haven. Now, it's been ruled that NR DOES remove these effects. For my part, I don't see why. I'll bring this up with the netrep team.

And so, here is is. Why did we rule that NR eliminates the cancellation effects of a wizardhaven?

[miguel]

I think the point was that otherwise half of NR would be moot.

[Manuel]

We've been playing a big tourney this weekend in Bilbao and more than one player asked this same question.

Nature's Revenge
Rarity: R3
Permanent-event
Playable on a site in a Wilderness that normally is a Border-hold or a Shadow-hold, or on a non-protected Wizardhaven in a Wilderness . All versions of the site become Ruins & Lairs and each gains an additional automatic- attack: animals Ñ each character faces 1 strike with 7 prowess. Discard this card when the site is discarded or returned to its location deck.

I found this on CoE 11:

19. Nature's Revenge is on a Hidden Haven'd site. Is the new auto attack cancelled by HH?

*** As I understand it, a wizard haven is pretty much like a haven for being a site type thus, when Nature's Revenge turns it into a Ruins and Lairs, it is no longer a wizard haven eventhough the Hidden Haven card isn't discarded yet. If the new auto attack was cancelled, half of Nature's Revenge would be moot. I'd say that hidden haven doesn't cancel the new auto created by Nature's Revenge. I mean, was Isenguard able to cancel the ent attack? Uh... nope.

This one is from a newer digest:

Nature's Revenge says, among other things, that it creates an
auto-attack at an unprotected Wizardhaven. But since Wizardhavens all
have the language on them that "all attacks against companies at this
site are cancelled", what does Nature's Revenge do?

*** Nature's Revenge overrides the text on the wizardhavens.

If it's played on an unprotected wizardhaven, I don't see why it shouldn't override wizardhaven texts (?) As Mikko says, NR wouldn't make much sense otherwise...

[Manuel]

Vile Fumes
Rarity: U4
MP: 1
CP: 1
Special Item
Technology. Playable at a tapped or untapped Shadow-hold, Dark-hold, or a site with a Dwarf automatic-attack. Discard during the site phase at a Border- hold or Shadow-hold to make all versions of the site Ruins & Lairs. Its normal automatic-attacks are replaced with: Gas - each character faces 1 strike with 7 prowess (cannot be canceled). Keep Vile Fumes with the site until the site is discarded or returned to its location deck.

On the other hand, Vile Fumes seems to work in a very similar way BUT I don't see why both NR and VF should remove the healing part of the haven. I mean, there's an auto attack there that overrides the site text, but other attacks different than that auto will still get cancelled, you can still heal there, play characters, etc.

[Konrad Klar]

On the other hand, Vile Fumes seems to work in a very similar way BUT I don't see why both NR and VF should remove the healing part of the haven.

Site simply becomes R&L. Even if all special abilities (normal or added by Hidden Haven, Mischief in Mean Way, Chamber in The Royal Court) should be preserved, healing, storing etc. are standard abilities of Haven and as such are not printed on any of mentoned cards. Site becoming Wizard-haven receives it, Wizard-haven becoming other type loses it.

No healing on R&L.

[Manuel]

Hm, yeah, that makes sense. Thanks

[miguel]

other attacks different than that auto will still get cancelled

I was under the impression the cancelling ability would go away completely...

[Manuel]

To me, the cancelling part is not removed mainly because "Haven" doesn't necessarily mean "cancel any attack". In fact, you can play creatures such as Lord of the House keyed to Rivendell.

NR only says the site is turned into a Ruins and Lairs and, as Konrad pointed out, loses its haven effects (healing, bringing characters into play...) but cancelling any attack while a company is there, etc isn't a haven effect.

[Wacho]

I think the cancelling ability should go away too. While cancelling attacks isn't strictly a Haven ability it is clearly a result of being a haven. The only reason hero havens don't cancel attacks is because ICE didn't imagine attacks keyed to havens when they made the Wizards. A haven is supposed to be a place of safety, but a ruins&lairs is supposed to be dangerous.

[Konrad Klar]

A haven is supposed to be a place of safety, but a ruins&lairs is supposed to be dangerous.

Even if canceling ability is not removed, it does not affect companies moving to R&L (formerly Wizardhaven). And attacks from creatures keyed to this site are not detainment anymore. If former Wizardhaven is surface site of under-deeps, companies at/moving to this site may be attacked by Nameless Thing. While Forewarned is Forearmed is in play such attack cannot be canceled.

[Manuel]

The fact is that, being a mistake or not, according to the rules, a haven doesn't automatically cancel an attack only because it's a haven. In fact, when you play a creature keyed to a minion haven when a company is moving there, it's not cancelled (only attacks as detainment).

I am not talking about what is NR supposed to do, or how it should work. I'm only talking about what I think it's a estrict reading of a card's text. Then again, if we feel that needs to be changed, so be it.

[zarathustra]

I'm in 100% agreement with Manuel on this. I think we should rule that NR just sucks, i.e., that attacks are still canceled.

[Manuel]

Proposal rule:

Nature's revenge just sucks

I think I'm really going to love the new CRF!!

[Sauron]

Goes well with the old Pallando CRF quote:

"Pallando does not suck"

[zarathustra]

Proposed ruling:

Vile Fumes (and Nature’s Revenge, in the case of wizardhavens) remove all normal haven effects. If the site card (e.g., Balrog Moria) or a card played on it (e.g., Hidden Haven) declare that attacks keyed to the site are cancelled, this is not a result of the site’s being a haven, but of the further special effect. Thus, Vile Fumes and Nature’s Revenge do not influence these effects.