Passive conditions stuff

[Konrad Klar]

Mod note: This discussion originates from here.

How is established order of modification to AA? For example if Redoubled Forces and Awaken Minions are in play, how is calculated number of strikes in Moria?
Annotation 26 is used?

[miguel]

How is established order of modification to AA? For example if Redoubled Forces and Awaken Minions are in play, how is calculated number of strikes in Moria?
Annotation 26 is used?

I assume Redoubled Force and Awaken Minions are in play when Moria is revealed. Both RF and AM set up passive conditions, which would get triggered by Moria. As passive conditions they need to wait until the first chain of effects until declared though, and that means the player currently taking his turn gets to choose the order they are declared in. Annotation 26 works for effects already in play which do not need to be declared again (they are simply applied).

The beginning of a company's movement-hazard phase unfolds thus:
(A) Revealing the site: Simultaneously determine the company's site path and the base hazard limit. This happens immediately, and cannot be responded to.
* Opponent halving the hazard limit in order to sideboard affects the base hazard limit.
* There are special rules concerning Under-deeps movement. (CRF: Rulings by Term: Under-deeps)

(B) Resolution of the site: Simultaneously draw cards, resolve other effects of the site card, and apply any other relevant effects in play. This happens immediately, and cannot be responded to.
* Annotation 26 applies here, except for hazard limit modifying effects which were in play prior to the start of the movement/hazard phase.

(C) First chain of effects: Effects that were played during the organization phase and depend on the site or site path of a moving company, create an effect which is now declared along with actions from passive conditions.
* After all of these effects/actions have been declared, players are free to add to this chain of effects by playing cards and/or declaring more actions.

[Konrad Klar]

And if company enters Bandit Lair its player may not choose which action will be first declared (bonuses from Rank upon Rank, or bonuses from Awaken Denizens [because it is not action but continous effect])?

Correct.

[quote=""miguel"]I assume Redoubled Force and Awaken Minions are in play when Moria is revealed. Both RF and AM set up passive conditions, which would get triggered by Moria[/quote]

So which is correct? Are Awaken Minions/Denizens and other hazard permanent or long events affecting AA creating continous effect (constantly modifing AA) or they sets up action triggered by passive condition which is revealing appropriate site?

[miguel]

I believe they work like passive conditions (get triggered), but their effect, once applied, is continuous as long as the conditions are met.

[Konrad Klar]

It makes things more complicated. AFAIK result of (successfully resolved) action coused by passive condition is not reverted, when card which coused such action or condition is no longer in play.
Companies returned by Snowstorm are not returned back to its attempted new site if Snowstorm is discarded. Sites tapped by Long Winter are not untapped automatically, when Long Winter, or Doors of Night leaves play or when they lost in its site path.

Result of action is applied to target and nothing can revert it back.

[miguel]

Snowstorm's effect is applied to a moving company. When the company is sent back, it is no longer moving. Snowstorm has no continuous effect on them.

Long Winter works the same way. Once the site is tapped, LW has no more effect on it. So should LW leave play, that has no effect on the sites it tapped so far.

However, Redoubled Force would give the boost to the orc/troll automatic-attacks, and continue giving it as long as possible. If we assume it would just trigger and give the boost once, what would keep RF from triggering again and again? I mean, the automatic-attack is still there... thus, it triggers and from then on continuously affects the AA. Should you get rid of RF via Marvels Told, the AA would lose the boost.

[Konrad Klar]

Should you get rid of RF via Marvels Told, the AA would lose the boost.

Continous effects works in this way, not actions. Passive condition causes action, never causes continous effects.

[miguel]

Just FYI, I would appreciate some rules-quotes which you base your views on, makes it easier for me to see where you are coming from instead of having to guess. Anyway...

You may only play a hazard long-event during your opponent's movement/hazard phase. Its card and effects remain in play until your opponent's next long-event phase or until otherwise discarded.

Long-event
The number of strikes and prowess of each Wolf, Spider, and Animal attack are increased by one (by two for Wolves if Doors of Night is in play). Cannot be duplicated.

So if I have understood correctly, by your definition Wake of War must produce a continuous effect, since its effect would leave play should it ever get discarded. And because of this, Wake of War does not create a passive condition (since passive conditions never cause continuous effects).

I am a bit baffled by that. To me it looks like the card should work exactly like Rank Upon Rank:

Permanent-event
All non-agent Man attacks receive +1 prowess and +1 strikes. If Doors of Night is in play, all Giant attacks also receive these bonuses. Discard this card when such an affected attack (automatic, hazard creature, or otherwise) is defeated. Cannot be duplicated.

Now if anything is confusing, that's two cards so similar working in a totally different way. So perhaps Rank Upon Rank also produces a continuous effect instead of a passive condition?

Ready to his Will
Note that cards like Rank Upon Rank are applied as a passive condition, once an attack of the right type is in play. Therefore you can play and successfully resolve Ready to His Will in response to the declaration of Rank Upon Rank's effect.

Nope, Rank actually creates a passive condition.

Is Wake of War really treated so differently just because it's a long-event, or should it be applied as a passive condition (with a seemingly continuous effect) as well? What's going on here?

[Konrad Klar]

So if I have understood correctly, by your definition Wake of War must produce a continuous effect, since its effect would leave play should it ever get discarded. And because of this, Wake of War does not create a passive condition (since passive conditions never cause continuous effects).

You don't understand me correctly.

I understand it in this way:

If card produces continous effect, then this effect lasts in play as long as card is in play. When card is removed from play, effect is removed too.

If card produces action activated by passive condition, then when action is succesfully resolved its result is not removed when card that produces action activated by passive condition is removed from play. (e.g. sites tapped by Long Winter are not untapped, when Long Winter is discarded))

In other words if action from Wake of War or Rank upon Rank is succesfully resolved then discarding it does not remove its results (here: bonuses to attack).

So if Redoubled Forces creates action caused by passive condition (I believe), then discarding it does not remove results of action, created by it. Otherwise it is card that produces continous effect (card is discarded, effect disapears).

So (if you mean resolved boost)

Should you get rid of RF via Marvels Told, the AA would lose the boost.

is incompatible with interpretation of other cards that produces action caused by passive condition (dragon ahunts, Long Winter, Snowstorm etc.).

[miguel]

Ok, so by your definition the passive conditions timing primer is not accurate when talking about In the Heart of His Realm, which would in your opinion not create a passive condition at all.

I'm certainly open for discussing any aspect of the rules in it's own proper thread (like this is now), but for future reference, all other threads and their subjects on the netrep board should be considered within the generally used/accepted ruleframes (such as the said passive conditins timing primer). Otherwise it's really hard to make sense of anything.

[Konrad Klar]

I just try to catch your idea of card affecting automatic-attacks and test its integrity (and compilancy with existing rules). It is really hard to make discussion about some advanced ideas if it is not sure that its base is correct.

In The Heart of His Realm is other (but related) question. IFAIK even players who assume that this card is creating (reacting on) passive condition don't talk that its effect is immediately removed, when im The Heart of His Realm is discarded.

It would be like results of attack from Dragon Ahunt were removed when Dragon Ahunt is discarded.