About cards playable on Attacks/Automatic-attacks

[miguel]

I had a chat with Mark about some rules-stuff on GCCG, and he brought up something that bothers him. Under the current understanding, a player could use Dark Quarrels with Gates of Morning to halve the number of strikes of an automatic-attack during the movement/hazard phase...

...if Gates of Morning is in play, the number of strikes from any attack is reduced to half of its original number, rounded up.

This is because of a previous ruling:

Can you discard Hoarmurath to add a strike to the auto-attack of the site the company's headed to?

*** Yes.

…When tapped, Hoarmurath of Dir becomes a short-event and gives +1 strike to any one attack.

But Dark Quarrels could not be used in the same way in the site phase, due to:

The only resources you may play against automatic-attacks are ones that cancel the attack, cancel a strike, or would be otherwise playable during the strike sequence.

I agree it’s rather silly you could use DQ in movement/hazard phase, but not in the site phase. I’ve been giving this some thought, and what if the Hoarmurath ruling is actually wrong?


Some things I consider true:
(1) Automatic-attacks on revealed (and resolved) sites are considered in play. I think that’s pretty clear because of cards like Tidings of Bold Spies.
(2) You may cancel an attack only after the attack has been declared. That’s why currently you can’t cancel an automatic-attack until you actually enter the site.

An example using the current understanding:
(1) Player A has a company moving to The Lonely Mountain (Dragon – 1 strike with 14 prowess).
(2) Player B playes Tidings of Bold Spies.
(3) Player A responds with The Old Thrush, targetting the automatic-attack at The Lonely Mountain.
--> Both the attack from Tidings and the automatic-attack are weakened (1 stike with 11 prowess).


Now for my idea. What if all cards which affect an attack in general, should only affect a declared attack? Then none of those cards could be used to affect an automatic-attack during the movement/hazard (or untap, organization etc.) phase. Cards which state to affect automatic-attacks would still do so even in the movement/hazard phase.

Same example, using my proposed ruling:
(1) Player A has a company moving to The Lonely Mountain (Dragon – 1 strike with 14 prowess).
(2) Player B playes Tidings of Bold Spies.
(3) Player A responds with The Old Thrush, targetting the attack from Tidings, since targetting the automatic-attack with it isn’t legal.
--> Only the attack from Tidings is weakened (1 strike with 11), while the real automatic-attack remains normal.

Another example, using my proposal:
(1) Player A has a company moving to Bandit Lair (Men - 3 strikes with 6 prowess).
(2) Player B plays Awaken Denizens (affects automatic-attacks at ), which doubles the number of strikes for Bandit Lair's automatic-attack.
(3) Player B plays Rank Upon Rank (gives non-agent Man attacks +1 prowess +1 strikes), which doesn't do anything to Bandit Lair's automatic-attack, since it hasn't been declared yet.
(4) Player A enters the site, the automatic-attack is declared. Rank Upon Rank kicks in, and we end up with an automatic-attack of Men - 7 strikes with 7 prowess.
--> The end-result is the same as with the current understanding, but what affects what and when is clearer.

Does this make sense, or should I go lie down for a while?

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Some further notes related to this. I have just quickly browsed through some cards, and haven't really come up with anything that would pose a problem to my interpretation. There is, however, a card which poses the same issue as presented in the beginning.

Cancel one Dragon, Drake, or Troll automatic-attack or attack keyed to a site.
Alternatively, if Gates of Morning is in play, reduce the number of strikes of any automatic-attack by 2 (to a minimum of one).

The 2nd effect would still be valid in movement/hazard phase, since it spesifies automatic-attack. But would you consider its cardtext to override the rules, making it legal to play it also in the site phase? A similar minion card has a much clearer wording:

Magic. Sorcery. Playable on a sorcery-using character facing an automatic-attack. The number of strikes of all automatic-attacks at the site this turn are reduced to one. Unless he is a Ringwraith, character makes a corruption check modified by -4.

Veils is clearly playable only in the site phase.

[Konrad Klar]

(2) Player B plays Awaken Denizens (affects automatic-attacks at Ruins & Lairs ), which doubles the number of strikes for Bandit Lair's automatic-attack.

Is not doubling of number of strikes, action coused by declaration of automatic-attack? You are wording this as it would be continous effect.

[miguel]

(2) Player B plays Awaken Denizens (affects automatic-attacks at Ruins & Lairs ), which doubles the number of strikes for Bandit Lair's automatic-attack.

Is not doubling of number of strikes, action coused by declaration of automatic-attack? You are wording this as it would be continous effect.

Yes it should affect any relevant AA's right away. Otherwise a Tidings played would not get the bonus.

[Konrad Klar]

So Rank upon Rank does not affect original attack, which copy is created by Tidings of Bold Spies?
And if company enters Bandit Lair its player may not choose which action will be first declared (bonuses from Rank upon Rank, or bonuses from Awaken Denizens [because it is not action but continous effect])?

[miguel]

So Rank upon Rank does not affect original attack, which copy is created by Tidings of Bold Spies?

Yes, Rank would not affect the automatic-attack, but it would affect the attack created by Tidings.

And if company enters Bandit Lair its player may not choose which action will be first declared (bonuses from Rank upon Rank, or bonuses from Awaken Denizens [because it is not action but continous effect])?

Correct.

[zarathustra]

Just to clarify: Rank would affect the automatic attack, but only once it is faced, in the site phase. That's what you have in mind, Mikko?

[miguel]

Just to clarify: Rank would affect the automatic attack, but only once it is faced, in the site phase. That's what you have in mind, Mikko?

Yes. You enter the site, and a Man-attack is declared. This triggers Rank's effect, just like with a creature played.

[tharasix]

I am extremely hesitant to agree with overturning rulings because the NetRep doesn't like how something works. There's a lot of holes and weirdness in the rules and cards. If we start issuing rulings like this, where does it end? From the beginning of the CoE, the NetRep has been charged with clarifying the existing rules and resolving conflicts within the rules and cards. This is clearly a rules erratum, and not a very necessary one at that. If this body does feel it is necessary to issue this erratum, it would have to be voted in by the CoE.

I don't mean to rain on anybody's parade, here, but I just want to maintain the focus the NetRep historically has had.

[miguel]

Would this really be a rules erratum? I certainly didn't mean it that way. Was it really possible to play Old Thrush on automatic-attacks in the untap phase when ICE was around, or is it just a bad habbit that was picked up afterwards?

Combat normally occurs when one of three things happen:
- When a creature hazard is played on a company.
- When a company at a site with an automatic-attack decides to attempt to play a resource card for that site (i.e., decides to attempt to enter and explore the site).
- When any other card indicates that a company must face an attack.

ATTACKS & STRIKES
Combat consists of one or more attacks that must be resolved one at a time...

According to this combat consists of attacks... there are no attacks other than in combat. So when can you play cards playable on attacks? During combat! I only introduced the idea using the term declared attack because we all know exactly what it means and it covers all types of attacks (like in CvCC). How is what I proposed different from what is described in the LE Rules?

Edit: Actually hazards have somewhat different rules as I will present in the next post, but I consider this post to be accurate when talking about resources.

[miguel]

You may only play hazard cards during your opponent's movement/hazard phase. Except for resource long-events, you may play resource cards anytime during your own turn unless specifically prohibited by the rules or the cards themselves.
Unless stated otherwise, a card is playable only if its effect applies to an existing situation, hazard, attack, etc. (i.e., you may not play a card just to discard it). A card cannot be played for no effect. A card may be played if it has potential effect.

Clarification: An automatic-attack at a company's new site may be targeted by a hazard during the company's movement/hazard phase. Such a hazard may be played even if the attack ultimately will not be faced (i.e., if the company decides not to face the automatic-attack during the site phase).

I suppose this is what the Hoarmurath ruling is based on? Considering an automatic-attack prolly isn't an existing attack/situation yet during the move/haz phase, should the clarification be read as:

(1) An automatic-attack at a company's new site may be targeted by a hazard which targets an attack during the company's movement/hazard phase.
or
(2) An automatic-attack at a company's new site may be targeted by a hazard which targets an automatic-attack during the company's movement/hazard phase.

In any case, the clarification brings up an interesting point. It only mentions hazards!

Let's assume (1) is correct, which would also make the Hoarmurath ruling correct. The clarification does not mention resources, so Dark Quarrels + GoM or The Old Thrush would not be playable in the move/haz phase. I suppose Not at Home + GoM would be playable at any time since NaH spesifically says automatic-attack.

Or if (2) is correct...

Some things I consider true:
(1) Automatic-attacks on revealed (and resolved) sites are considered in play. I think that’s pretty clear because of cards like Tidings of Bold Spies.

...should this actually be "except when a company is facing them, AAs on companies' new sites are considered in play only for the purposes of hazards"? Then neither DQ nor NaH would be playable prior to site phase (and DQ of course not even then).

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I'd like to go with (1) because
- it's intuitive
- no need to overturn a previous ruling... in fact, maybe no need to make a ruling at all
- you get to play dragon boost cards on dragon automatic-attacks
- resources affecting AA's will affect AA's all the time (otherwise Sun + GoM would not have any effect on a Tidings attack)
- it still solves the DQ + GoM (or similar) issue



As an afterthought, how would Rank Upon Rank work when a site with a Man automatic-attack is reavealed? I suppose it would give the bonus at that point, since it can target the AA already..?

[miguel]

I split this thread as the rest of it was getting off-topic. You can find the passive conditions discussion here.

[Wacho]

I actually think 2 should be correct. Most hazard auto-attack enhancers are meant to be played on the site and say that or at least imply that. The clarification isn't really supposed to be a new rule it simply is supposed to explain things.

There is a quote from one of the MECCG books I have (I believe the Lidless Eye guide) that shows that Orc Quarrels is playable on an automatic-attack. I think the CRF entry wasn't really meant to limit cards playable on attacks, but to limit play of all other cards when facing the auto attack. I think we should clarify the CRF entry so that cards that affect attacks are playable by the resource player. While I realize that might technically be a change of rule wording, isn't that the way everybody has been playing up until now? So ruling the other way would actually be more of a change. Anyway I can think of at least 2 examples where this type of clarification has been done in the past by the team so I don't think it is unprecedented.

[miguel]

There is a quote from one of the MECCG books I have (I believe the Lidless Eye guide) that shows that Orc Quarrels is playable on an automatic-attack.

If it's not too much trouble, could you quote that part for me? I don't have any of the player's guides.

[Wacho]

There is a quote from one of the MECCG books I have (I believe the Lidless Eye guide) that shows that Orc Quarrels is playable on an automatic-attack.

If it's not too much trouble, could you quote that part for me? I don't have any of the player's guides.

Sure, it's in the Magic section under the Veils of Shadow card. Here's the quote:

Veils of Shadows is also one of the few cards that can affect automatic-attacks where each character faces one strike. Since it reduces the number of strikes to a specific number, it can affect such an attack where the second ability of Orc Quarrels would have no effect.

[miguel]

Veils of Shadows is also one of the few cards that can affect automatic-attacks where each character faces one strike. Since it reduces the number of strikes to a specific number, it can affect such an attack where the second ability of Orc Quarrels would have no effect.

I don't think that means Orc Quarrels is playable on automatic-attacks. It's used as an example of a card that cannot be used against an attack where each character faces one strike.

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Ok, this thread is a bit confusing, so here is a condensed version:

Regarding cards you may play on automatic-attacks:

(I) Resources that are playable on
* attacks can be used on automatic-attacks only when a company is facing them.
* automatic-attacks can be used on automatic-attacks anytime.

(II) Hazards that are playable on attacks or automatic-attacks can be used on automatic-attacks during the movement/hazard phase (or revealed as on-guards).