raddy's black bird vs tapped radagast

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marcos
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Raddy's bird wrote:Unique. Radagast specific. Playable at one of your Wizardhavens. You may return Radagast's Black Bird to your hand: during your organization phase or if its controling character leaves active play. Radagast may play this ally at any site (tapped or untapped) and need not tap himself or the site to do so. This ally may attempt to influence factions as if he were a character. He may cancel a strike directed against him tapping afterwards if not already tapped.
The question is wether or not having an untapped character is a requirement for playing a resource, and therefore, can raddy play the ally if he is tapped?
Mikko and I been speaking a bit about it, but it would be good to leave conclusions written on the forum.
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miguel
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Found two related threads on meccg.net from 2005 and 2006.

Now for the moment, let's consider that the following quote from the LE rules (also found in TW rules) could be inaccurate:
Starter Rules: Playing and Drawing Cards wrote:A faction card, ally card, or item card must be played during your site phase and requires an untapped character and an untapped site.
And let's say this following quote from a later print (Balrog and CH booklets) overrides the old one:
Turn Sequence: Site Phase wrote:Items, factions, and allies can only be played at an untapped site unless specifically allowed at a tapped site on their card.
...
You may tap an untapped character in a company at an untapped site and place the item with that character. This taps the site.
...
Playing an ally is similar to an item.
I believe a resource requiring a tapped site is different from requiring a tapped character, because tapping the character is in fact a cost; the active condition for playing the item/faction/ally.

For example, you enter Moria with Mablung and somehow manage to confuse the orcs so he gets in untapped.
(i) you tap Mablung to play Orcrist and place Orcrist with Mablung
(ii) you tap Moria as the result of succesfully playing Orcrist

So at (i) you need to check for the untapped site since Orcrist is not allowed to be played at tapped sites. You also need to check for Mablung's status, since if tapped, you are unable to pay the cost of bringing Orcrist into play. The difference is, an untapped site needs to be a requirement because it is not a cost. You only tap the site after succesfully playing Orcrist, so unless it was made into a requirement, you would be able to play Orcrist at tapped sites without consequence.

Now let's look at FW Radagast being wounded on his way to Moria (Cave Worm!!), he still decides to enter the site and makes mincemeat out of the orcs. His player has Orcrist and Black Bird in hand. The player would like to play Orcrist and sees the site is untapped, check. But he is unable to pay to cost of bringing Orcrist into play. Black Bird however, does not care about the site card's status per its card text when played by Radagast; the site can be tapped or untapped. And per Black Bird's card text, there is no cost of tapping Radagast to play Black Bird with him, therefore he should able to do so regardless of his untapped/tapped/wounded status.
(i) you place Black Bird with Radagast
(ii) you do not tap the site upon succesfully playing Black Bird per its card text

I think Black Bird is the only card affected by all this. However it is played in just about every FW Radagast deck, so this really needs to be clarified, one way or the other. Thoughts?
Sauron
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I always thought the need not tap meant he had to be untapped, but didn't need to tap. So he could play it and remain untapped.
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miguel
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Yes I understand and probably most people see it that way, possibly due to the issue regarding tapped sites vs. resources that do not tap the site (they still require an untapped site unless otherwise specified), or due to the METW/MELE rulebook entry. But as I have shown above, IMO requiring an untapped site is a poor analogy for requiring an untapped character, and I think the newer rulebook entries support my theory.
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I believe Rad needs to be untapped to play this.
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miguel
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Ok, but based on what? I mean, what do you think about my posts above is faulty?
Jambo
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A faction card, ally card, or item card must be played during your site phase and requires an untapped character and an untapped site.
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miguel
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So you didn't actually find anything faulty about my train of thought, you just prefer to go with a rule that was written back when there were no cards like Black Bird. Fair enough, the LE rules are supposed to be the pinnacle of rulebooks, a view that I don't necessarily share. But since there's been next to no discussion in this thread, I won't push it.
Proposed ruling wrote:Even though Radagast doesn't need to tap himself to play Radagast's Black Bird, he must still be untapped to do so.
Jambo
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There's so much in MeCCG that could be argued one way or another. RW followers as an example of something that never got resolved despite good logic. Thrall of the Voice vs Bad Company. In the Heart of His Realm...
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Konrad Klar
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Logic behind the statement:
Even though Radagast doesn't need to tap himself to play Radagast's Black Bird, he must still be untap.
is quite different from conclusion from:
http://www.councilofelrond.org/forum/vi ... =16&t=1754

There are always pre-requirements for actual conditions.

If card must be tapped as condition, it must be untapped and in play prior declaration.
If card must be discarded from play as condition, it must be in play prior declaration.
If card must be discarded from hand as condition, it must be at hand prior declaration.
Etc.

Does it mean that each time when condition may be fulfilled in alternate way, or no fulfilled (according to special ability), pre-requirements of action must be observed anyway?
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
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miguel
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Are you saying that regarding Memories Recalled, the company would need an actual Lost Knowledge card for it to follow the logic of the ruling regarding Black Bird? If so, I don't really agree, because the ruling about Black Bird is based only on the quote from Starter Rules that state an untapped character is required for playing an ally. It is not making a general statement about pre-requirements.
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Konrad Klar
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I see the quote from Starter Rules that state an untapped character is required for playing an ally as pre-requirement to actual condition, not as actual condition.
This is quite easy: it cannot be required from character to be untapped and tapping it at the same time. The both requirements preclude each other. First is pre-requirement for second.

I agree with your statement regarding Memories Recalled.

If condition (discarding Lost Knowledge) does not need be fulfilled, its pre-requirement is not required too.
I think that the same logic applies to the Radagast and Radagast's Black Bird.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
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miguel
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Yes! Finally someone agrees that Raddy can play his Birdie while tapped. :wink:

I will unsticky for further discussion and maybe a new (gasp) proposed ruling... :lol:

Marcos: Any thoughts on this?
marcos
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sounds pretty logic to me. If you don't have to pay the cost of tapping a character then having it untapped shouldn't matter. It's a card without a cost.
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miguel
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