RW Followers and We Have come to kill

[zarathustra]

Please can you rule on:

1. RW followers and WHCtK to finally clear that one up.
2. RW followers and 1 char per turn (e.g. Khamul and The Witch-king). I can see you're already deliberating this anyway.

When there's discrepancy or uncertainty opening doors is sometimes better than closing them.

In this thread let's merely deal with 1.

The CRF has an entry on this:

We Have Come to Kill may be used to bring in agents, but not Ringwraiths or Fallen-wizards. [Van]

The digest in question is ICE 585:

We Have Come To Kill
May I use this card to bring my Ringwraith in play ? And what will be the amount of his mind ? May I use A Chance Meeting at any time during my turn (during movement hazard phase to assign the new character a strike; will this increase the number of hazards) ? May I play a character (during organization phase) at any Shadow-, Border-hold and Ruin & Lairs also if the site is not in play ?

*** No, We Have Come To Kill can't be used to bring in a Ringwraith. The same restriction applies that you must be at the site.

As you can see, the question has to do with bringing my RW into play. Van answered this sloppily by saying whctk can't be used to bring a RW into play.

My guess is that he only intended to rule on the question being asked, and that therefore his ruling should not necessarily extend to RW followers.

If this is right, then it will be possible to play a rw-follower with WHCtK. I don't see any real problems with this in terms of gameplay. The only way to use whctk in this way is to take your rw to a :B:, :R:, or :S: and have at least 1 DI free. Since trying to do this with a company with non-rw characters would create an illegal company composition, it's quite restricted.

Thoughts?

[Wacho]

Hmm, not sure this should be allowed. Here's the rules about RW followers:

RINGWRAITH FOLLOWERS
If the following conditions are met, you may bring another (different) Ringwraith character into play at your Ringwraith's site - such a character is called a "Ringwraith follower."
· Your Ringwraith is already in play.
· Your Ringwraith is at a Darkhaven or he is at the Ringwraith follower's home site.
· You have the card of the additional Ringwraith in your hand.
· Your opponent does not have the Ringwraith already in play and the Ringwraith has not been eliminated.
· You have the card or ability allowing a Ringwraith follower to be played (e.g., They Ride Together, The Witch-king's ability).

Note the 2nd item. Your RW needs to be at a Darkhaven or the homesite. Then item 5 says you must have the appropriate card or ability. This suggests that having the card doesn't change the other requirements, i.e. the site requirement. Having a card is in addition to these other requirements, so could the card change these requirements? I'm not sure. I certainly think it wasn't intended to do so.

I agree though that Van was only really answering the question about your avatar.

[miguel]

@ We Have Come to Kill may be used to bring in agents, but not Ringwraiths or Fallen-wizards. [Van] %
[Original ICE entry: as above, minus 'or Fallen-wizards']

So there is in fact an ICE entry stating that RWs can't be played with WHCtK.

[Wacho]

@ We Have Come to Kill may be used to bring in agents, but not Ringwraiths or Fallen-wizards. [Van] %
[Original ICE entry: as above, minus 'or Fallen-wizards']

So there is in fact an ICE entry stating that RWs can't be played with WHCtK.

This comes from the ICE 585 digest that Mark mentioned. I think that WHctK wasn't really intended to bring RW followers into play, but aside from this digest ruling which as we've seen was a little sloppy there doesn't seem to be any reason why they couldn't be. I don't think it would be a big deal as you'd still be limited to the sites. There are only 4 sites where you could do this: Mt. Doom, Shelob's Lair, Nurniag Camp, and Variag Camp. Plus only 5 of the 9 RWs have one of these sites as a homesite. I don't have a problem with a ruling either way.

[Konrad Klar]

We Have Come to Kill may be used to bring in agents, but not Ringwraiths or Fallen-wizards. [Van]

I think that idea behind this ruling is simple: you cannot bring under GI/DI character that cannot be controlled by influence at all.
Therefore race of character does not matter for purpose of WHCtK. What does matter is fact that Ringwraith is not conrolled by DI/GI. Ringwraith Follower is usually controlled by DI.

· You have the card or ability allowing a Ringwraith follower to be played (e.g., They Ride Together, The Witch-king's ability).

WHCTK is not the card that specifically allows for playing RW follower. Because it overrides normal conditions of playing agent characters - normally playable only at its home sites - (even if it does not make any reference to agents) I think that similarly:

· Your Ringwraith is at a Darkhaven or he is at the Ringwraith follower's home site.

should not be in force for purposes of WHCTK.


P.S. Personally I think that idea behind text of hero counterpart of We Have Come To Kill - A Chance Meeting is possibility of playing with this card character that normally may be played only at his home site, not necessarily Hobbit (in Wizards edition both groups - Hobbits and characters that can be played only at its home site was the same groups of characters). However it never was clearly stated in CRF in such way.

[Wacho]

WHCTK is not the card that specifically allows for playing RW follower. Because it overrides normal conditions of playing agent characters - normally playable only at its home sites - (even if it does not make any reference to agents) I think that similarly:
Quote:
· Your Ringwraith is at a Darkhaven or he is at the Ringwraith follower's home site.

should not be in force for purposes of WHCTK.

There are specific rules on bringing RW follower into play. These requirements (one of which is you must be at a homesite or darkhaven). In addition you must have a card or ability which allows you to play a RW follower. Since the card is in addition to other requirements it can't change those requirements. This is very different from the play of any other character.

[Konrad Klar]

I understand you.
I don't think that WHCtK is equivalent of They Ride Together or The Witch-king's ability.
I think that its texts only supersedes item 2:

· Your Ringwraith is at a Darkhaven or he is at the Ringwraith follower's home site.

similarly as it supersedes:

If the character is not an agent, you may only play him at his home site or at any Darkhaven site. If the character is an agent, you may only play him at his home site.

for agents.

In other words it cannot be used to play character that could not be otherwise legally in play and/or under control of its controller.

[Wacho]

So, according to you, to play a RW follower using WHctK you would need WHctK and another card/ability which allows the play of RW followers. Am I understanding correctly?

If that is what you are saying then maybe I agree with you. I'd have to consider it. Overall though I think I'm still on the side of you can't play RW followers with WHctK in any situation.

[Konrad Klar]

So, according to you, to play a RW follower using WHctK you would need WHctK and another card/ability which allows the play of RW followers. Am I understanding correctly?

Yes.

EDIT:
We Have Come To Kill is not per se a card that allows for playing RW followers. Similarly this card solely is not enough for playing of Orcs or Trolls by FW player. However Orcs and Trolls may be played with it as long as it is otherwise legal.

[miguel]

I agree with this.

So, according to you, to play a RW follower using WHctK you would need WHctK and another card/ability which allows the play of RW followers. Am I understanding correctly?

Yes.

EDIT:
We Have Come To Kill is not per se a card that allows for playing RW followers. Similarly this card solely is not enough for playing of Orcs or Trolls by FW player. However Orcs and Trolls may be played with it as long as it is otherwise legal.

[Jambo]

I also agree with this.

I agree with this.

So, according to you, to play a RW follower using WHctK you would need WHctK and another card/ability which allows the play of RW followers. Am I understanding correctly?

Yes.

EDIT:
We Have Come To Kill is not per se a card that allows for playing RW followers. Similarly this card solely is not enough for playing of Orcs or Trolls by FW player. However Orcs and Trolls may be played with it as long as it is otherwise legal.

[Wacho]

The CRF entry is rather older than ICE digest 585. Van was merely using this entry to answer a specific question. Here is the original ICE entry

We Have Come to Kill

We Have Come to Kill may be used to bring in agents, but not Ringwraiths.

I think that this rules out any use of WHCtK with RWs, either as your RW or RW followers. Considering that RWs can't be in a company with non-RWs it seems pretty clear that this must include RW followers.

[Konrad Klar]

If you play a Ringwraith at a non-Darkahven site where there is one of your non-
Ringwraith comapnies, one of the companies must move that turn. If both companies
are still there at the end of the movement/hazard phase, discard the non-Rinwraith
company. [Effective 11/17/97]

And where it is written that character played with We have Come To Kill must be played at site with company?

[Jambo]

The CRF entry is rather older than ICE digest 585. Van was merely using this entry to answer a specific question. Here is the original ICE entry

We Have Come to Kill

We Have Come to Kill may be used to bring in agents, but not Ringwraiths.

I think that this rules out any use of WHCtK with RWs, either as your RW or RW followers. Considering that RWs can't be in a company with non-RWs it seems pretty clear that this must include RW followers.

Given that RW followers in general are not allowed to be played, this crf statement and Van's digest make sense. WHCtK doesn't intrinsically allow RW followers to be played. It doesn't grant the ability. This is in stark contrast to agents, which apart from not being allowed in a starting company, are only distinguishable from 'normal' characters by not being allowed to be brought into play at Darkhavens.

However, having said all that, there are 2 RWs who are intrinsically allowed to play RW followers (Khamul can play 1 and the Witch-king can play 2). Normally, these can be brought into play at a Darkhaven or a RW's homesite. Therefore, the question should be more about whether WHCtK should be allowed to bring RW followers into play for only those 2 RWs.