some controversial ones

[Frodo]

Regarding Storms of Osse, let’s write:
“Reach of Ulmo is no longer discarded when an Under-Deeps site is reached.”

I think, like Thorsten, that that will be an important addition, especially versus Balrog!

As far as reflections upon floods and rain, does the sea ever really flood when there’s no rain? Barring underwater earthquakes. If Tolkien was alluding to the Biblical Flood, which of course he was, I’m sure it there was a lot of rain going on… though maybe not for 40 days and 40 nights.

Anyway, again, I like the idea of sparing the mountains, but I actually liked Jambo’s version better than Thorsten’s. you’re right, the region names themselves become difficult to continually keep track of. Also, using the phrase “adjacent regions,” not only helps with remembering the regions but it more closely mimics the spreading of the flood. We should either use the second version, or another version that I just came with which is very similar to Jambo’s, save it keeps some aggression from the first. Note that it spares all mountainous regions, plus North Rhov and Dorwinion, except Angmar (listed a few paragraphs below).

I’m really not sold on protecting the sanctity of Minas Tirith just for a Morannon (V) deck, which can just hold onto a Marvels Told for the run to the site, and then get the hell out of there next turn (yes, the repeated play of a third Ulmo will be the death of them, true, but they can plan around this calamity-move only a few characters to this site and the main company around the back, play Morannon early than go somewhere else before Cirth/Barad which our new version will allow). Nor on protecting the virginity of the too-popular Return of the King deck (which can still be played if the site just taps). In fact, tapping the site merely stops the 2 MP faction or palantir/keys, when it’s the squatting ability that should be targeted.

Storms of Osse wrote: (Joe’s Version)

Permanent event
Environment. Playable if Gates of Morning is not in play. The following regions or sites can also be considered coastal seas for the purposes of playing hazards. The effects are cumulative depending on the number of Storms of Osse in play. One: All regions adjacent to coastal sea regions. Two (if The Reach of Ulmo is in play): Forochel, Western Mirkwood, Brown Lands, Rohan, Dagorlad, Nurn, and all Under-deeps sites (hazard creatures only). In addition, The Reach of Ulmo is no longer discarded when an Under-Deeps site is reached. Three or more (if The Reach of Ulmo is in play): All regions adjacent to those affected above. In addition, Minas Tirith, Pelargir, and Dol Amroth are discarded along with all cards at these sites and cannot be replayed. The mind of each Dunadan is increased by 2.

If we decide that the above is too strong however, in playtesting or otherwise, here is an alternate version of Thorten’s suggestion that lacks the drama of the above but has more punch:

“In addition, Minas Tirith, Pelargir, and Dol Amroth are tapped and no company may move there or enter those sites. The mind of each Dunadan is increased by 2.”

Btw, we can scrap the mind addition if we make a new Drowning Seas (V).

ANOTHER possibility, though, is that we scrap the apocalypse stuff from this card altogether, and put it all on Drowning Seas. This would allow us to write something gentler like:

Drowning Seas (V):

Permanent-event
Playable if three or more Storms of Osse and The Reach of Ulmo are in play, and if Storms of Osse was not played this turn: Minas Tirith, Pelargir, and Dol Amroth are discarded along with all cards at these sites and cannot be replayed. The mind of each Dunadan is increased by 2.

The reason why this makes a key difference from the previous is that IT IS POSSIBLE FOR THE RESOURCE PLAYER TO PREDICT when it is safe to go to Minas Tirith. In other words, beforehand the resource player could get nailed with the 3rd SOS and have no time to flee Minas Tirith! This way, however, the resource player will always know the earliest point when the apocalypse might happen, and thus make a decision to get the hell out, or chance that he might draw a Marvels/Twilight and leave some guys behind.

--Frodo

[Thorsten the Traveller]

@Ghosts. I still don't understand why Ghosts should be only creature, what does it benefit over a perm? You can still play it with regular Sleepless Malice, and unless you're Aragorn yourself this is a sideboard card against Gondor. Cool but specific sideboard cards should not be priority. But if it were a creature/perm. with effect on Gondor it would have alround ability. Now, you have to keep it in hand all the time, and to counter that we must invent a card that you can tap/discard to get it to hand, and to give that any value it must give bonus to a creature type that is probably the most easily buffed up of all creatures

more questions:
-why detainment vs. heroes? Before the Army was subdued by Aragorn, they were lethal.
-if keyable to region adjacent where Aragorn is, opponent can play it on other company moving towards Aragorn...no good.
-if Ghosts V is unique, Ghosts can't be played if defeated (small chance, but still). If it's a perm, it can be non unique non duplicatable by any player.
-Can Sleepless malice target creature/perm?

how about, not even half-creature?:

permanent-event.
Unique. Manifestation of Army of the Dead (playable if Army of the Dead is in play). Each non-wizard non-elf character moving through Rohan or Lamedon must make a cc at -2.
Additionally, any company moving to Dunharrow, Vale of Erech, or Puckel-deeps receives an attack at beginning of movement hazard phase: undead 1@18/8 or 5@10/8 (hazard players choice). Alternatively, if Army of the Dead or Return of the king is in play, any non-hero company at a site or moving through (adjacent) region where Aragorn II is present faces above mentioned attack(s). If either one is in play, all attacks are cancelled against player that controls Aragorn II, and Aragorn II may tap to take this card from discard pile to hand.

125 words.

Bandobras explained me once that you can target card that is not in play (in discard), so I suppose Aragorn can tap to get it, he directs the army...
I went for the option of Jambo/Frodo for the attack, the math at first might not be that complicated, but if you start enhancing it with Moon is Dead, Chill Douser or Plague, then you might get bit confused I suppose. Now it's just: all against one guy, or each ghost a guy.
Note that it can be played on Aragorn before he is king or has played the Army...

[Leon]

I did not see any reason for the Army to be a creature and not an event either, so I like your suggestion. It is about as clear as we can get it.

[Thorsten the Traveller]

@Storms. This version (Frodo's) just lists some regions that are rather unconnected out of the blue. Then I'd go with Jambo's version, if the regions on my version are too many, and forget about the north-east.

If all hazard-ideas mentioned here have to be marvelled, then we must make a rule that allows you to pack 10 marvels in deck. I think Morannon player has enough on his mind not wanting to blow marvels on Ulmo, again and again. Either way, there's also Horns 3x that needs Tirith. It's a bit strange to create a hazard that makes it impossible to play some of your key Virtual ideas/missions, hard though the conditions may be. So I like Drowning Seas, but it would be a sideboard card...

something you mentioned at unawares probably: what happens to comp. that is at Tirith when Drowning Seas is played?

btw. all mayor floodings by the sea are earthquake/volcano or storm induced obviously, the sea can't rise in level all of a sudden, like rivers or lakes can, and even big hurricanes like Katrina don't come with endless days of rain. I don't think Tolkien made reference to the biblical flooding, more to the fact that higher powers can shape and change the face of the earth. Beleriand wasn't exactly flooded, it kind of disappeared like Numenor under the sea.

[Jambo]

One thing that keeps nagging at my mind is the fact this card is unique. It means it has the potential to have a negligible impact on any game, and it also completely rules out the original Ghosts creature. Whilst this may not be so bad for the person playing it, it could have a major impact on your opponent who might have 3x regular Ghosts in their deck. That’s not good and not really what VCs are all about.

So a different tack might be to adopt a similar idea to Storms of Osse. Remove the uniqueness, and make the effect build with the number of Ghosts in play, i.e. small army vs big mobilised army.

Permanent-event - (6) (18/8 )
Dunharrow, The Pukel-deeps and Vale of Erech receive an automatic attack: Undead -- 1@18/8 or 5@12/4 (hazard player’s choice). If two Ghosts are in play, <blah>. If three Ghosts are in play, <blah>. If Return of the King is in play, <blah>. If Army of the Deaf is in play, <blah> (I left typo as it amused me )

Somewhere there has to be a link to Aragon, Army of the Dead and perhaps Return of the King. Prize to the person who can think up the best wording for this!

[Thorsten the Traveller]

what would that build up represent, and what kind of effect do you envision? I mean, no problem to think of something, but is that not making the card even more impossible and cramped?

Like I suggested in post above, as a perm. you can add non duplicable by any player and skip the uniqueness, I see no problem in that, someone wants 3 in deck he's got hit by something over the head, but he may if he wishes. Anyway Aragorn can fetch it.

[Jambo]

A slightly cooler (imo) variation of Storms of Osse:

Storms of Osse V
Permanent event
Environment. Playable if Gates of Morning is not in play. The following regions or sites can be considered coastal seas for the purposes of playing hazards (only hazard creatures at sites). Effects are cumulative depending on the number of Storms of Osse in play. One: Under-deeps Ruins & Lairs and regions adjacent to coastal seas. Two (if The Reach of Ulmo is in play): All Under-deeps sites, Forochel, Anduin Vales, Wold and Foothills, Brown Lands, Rohan, Dagorlad, Ithilien and Nurn. Three (if Drowning Seas is played for no effect): Regions adjacent to those affected in one above. In addition, tap each Dunadan in play and Minas Tirith, Pelargir, and Dol Amroth are discarded along with all cards at these sites.


Reach of Ulmo does the extended Under-deeps and the Anduin. Drowning Seas does the cataclysm. Of course, it's a short-event so Middle-earth doesn't stay drowned for too long.

[Thorsten the Traveller]

What would happen to company that is at mentioned dunadan sites?
Some (Red Horn, High Pass, Angmar, Gundabad, Grey Mountains) of the mountains are still flooded...
Why would underdeeps ruins flood, yet underdeeps holds would not? They got dikes down there? I like the practical distinction for minions though, but for heroes it is strange. I would not go into this complication.

I like the Drowning Seas idea, but Ulmo was easier to counter even than this one. Yet it does add a third card to the combo making it more difficult to pull off. So, why not? A Drowning Seas V could be perm. btw.

Time to playtest this card, I think it's really powerful, Lost at and Drowning are awful cards to face, maybe we should extend the 'creature only' part to the whole card.

[Jambo]

Some (Red Horn, High Pass, Angmar, Gundabad, Grey Mountains) of the mountains are still flooded....

Um, how? With 3 SoO out, it only works regions that are adjacent to those affected with 1 out.

Why would underdeeps ruins flood, yet underdeeps holds would not? They got dikes down there? I like the practical distinction for minions though, but for heroes it is strange. I would not go into this complication.

Ruins & Lairs are unkept places, often in states of disrepair. Shadow- and dark-holds are typically fortified. It's supposed to reflect a progressive flooding.

Time to playtest this card, I think it's really powerful, Lost at and Drowning are awful cards to face, maybe we should extend the 'creature only' part to the whole card.

Yes you may well be correct here. It may well be best to make it creatures only as the watery hazards are really nasty. Still, there's a lot of work to get to the seriously dangerous "flooded" levels, and companies can move and adapt and avoid regions as they see fit, or decide to take any necessary risks. One Gates seeing resolution is enough to scuppper an entire build up of Storms of Osse.

[Thorsten the Traveller]

Ah I see, I read that as 'one of the regions above', but you meant the condition of One storm. I'd phrase that bit differently, at least I was mislead there.

With 1 SoO already a good number of regions are effected and discarding items or wasting a turn is really good. Of course the build up is not easy, but there's equal defense against gates/twilight I suppose. And there's no defense against the events, since you can't use the Great Ship. We'll see.

So, what about the comp. at Minas Tirith that gets discarded? (3rd attempt, hehe).

[Jambo]

Toning it down a little:


Storms of Osse V
Permanent event
Environment. Playable if Gates of Morning is not in play. The following regions or sites can be considered Coastal Seas for the purposes of playing hazard creatures. Effects are cumulative depending on the number of Storms of Osse in play. One: Under-deeps Ruins & Lairs and regions adjacent to Coastal Seas. Two: All adjacent Under-deeps sites (if The Reach of Ulmo is in play: regions adjacent to those above, Anduin Vales, Wold and Foothills, Brown Lands, Rohan, Dagorlad, Ithilien and Nurn). Three: Tap each Dunadan in play and affected regions can be considered Coastal Seas for the purpose of playing hazard events.

There we go. At the start it just allows creatures, with Storms covering the regions near coastal seas and the Under-deeps, and The Reach of Ulmo enabling further expansion inwards plus the Anduin River and Nurn lake. Getting three Storms out enables the nasty water events! Anyone who let's the three get out deserves to be nailed bad.

Seems a little better balanced perhaps?

[marcos]

@Ghosts. I still don't understand why Ghosts should be only creature, what does it benefit over a perm? You can still play it with regular Sleepless Malice, and unless you're Aragorn yourself this is a sideboard card against Gondor. Cool but specific sideboard cards should not be priority. But if it were a creature/perm. with effect on Gondor it would have alround ability. Now, you have to keep it in hand all the time, and to counter that we must invent a card that you can tap/discard to get it to hand, and to give that any value it must give bonus to a creature type that is probably the most easily buffed up of all creatures

Re only creature(again): For terms of deckbuilding

more questions:
-why detainment vs. heroes? Before the Army was subdued by Aragorn, they were lethal.

I ask the same... I guess it is just easier to word, though i like your "non-hero company" suggestion

-if keyable to region adjacent where Aragorn is, opponent can play it on other company moving towards Aragorn...no good.

that is why Jambo worded it like "detainment vs hero" at a first time

-if Ghosts V is unique, Ghosts can't be played if defeated (small chance, but still). If it's a perm, it can be non unique non duplicatable by any player.

Regular Ghosts are good but i think that any of the other undeads are very much better than them, will it be for either keyability, number of strikes, extra ability, prowess, etc... So no matter here

-Can Sleepless malice target creature/perm?

yes since it is already a creature

About Storms, keep it going i like it
Agree with making a new drowning seas

So, what about the comp. at Minas Tirith that gets discarded? (3rd attempt, hehe)

I guess the answer to your question is that we need to work on that

[Leon]

I think the idea of using Storms of Osse to make water creatures keyable to regions adjacent to seas is very nice, but I do not like heavier effects than that. Keeping the card limited like this makes it already quite usefull to hit some relatively safe regions very hard with Turtles and such.