New NetRep Team

[CDavis7M]

As a player I would want an arbiter other than my opponent.

Absolutely this. I played in US Nationals back in... 95/96? against Ichabod, who, despite my (rules-based) protestations ruled in the instance that he could indeed move to Mount Doom with Starter Movement and dunk the Ring... which he did. Lol. I wasn't as amused then as I am now.

There was no US Nationals in '95. If you played Ichabod at the '96 Nationals then Ichabod played correctly. There was no basis for your protest in the rules. The Gorgoroth rule was not implemented by the Council of Lorien until 1997 and Ichabod was the one announcing it.

I find that recognizing the history of the changes and clarifications overtime was essential in understanding how the rules work. Not just in understanding what the correct version of the rule is and how it works compared to past versions, but in understanding how the Designers themselves interpreted the game mechanics and rules and how they adapted the changes to fit those.

--------

But I agree. It looks bad when top tournament players are the ones making the rules. And it wouldn't be so bad if they top tournament players were not deliberately distorting or ignoring the rules and past ICE rulings (for their own gain?)

• CoE NetReps ignore the past ICE rulings (which they knew of) and clear lack of the words "orc" or "troll" on Thrall of the Voice and instead rule that Troll-chief can be played with Thrall so they can squat at Ettenmoors. This type of deck was played by competitive players.
• CoE NetRep deliberately misunderstand rules on passive conditions to pretend that In The Heart of His Realm can be stopped by Marvels Told. As if they NetRep knew game design better than the designers themselves. This gave an advantage to One Ring decks used by some competitive players.
• Minion and Balrog decks are ever popular and big surprise, the NetRep ignores the text of River, doesn't even look at the most recent version of the card, misconstrues a play condition as an effect, and then lets minions incorrectly move to a second site to bypass river's effect. Heroes can do this too but not as easily as minion and balrog
• The rules clearly state that playing an ally requires an untapped site. ICE ruled on Black Horse this way. The CoE NetRep rules that Radagast's Black Bird can be played at a tapped site by making up a rationale the directly contradicts rules he is presented with.

And it's not just in the past. Take a look at Worlds 2021. The tournament winning deck is tested with Spanish players on GCCG and it's played in Finals but no one can be bothered to read page 20 of the METW rules.

Even assuming that people had good motivations (though some clearly wanted to go against ICE's rulings as stated on the old mailing list posts), it looks bad and shows a poor understanding the rules. But then these are the people that the CoE makes their NetRep? It looks like 6 best friends want to keep playing the same decks together so they make up bogus rules that casual players have never heard of to ensure that they get to the finals even if some casual has really good dice rolls.

There is an appearance of impropriety.

And 20 years later I thought "oh, maybe they just didn't know the ICE rulings because know one remembers now." But no. Back when ICE was around, Brian Wong and a few other CoE councilmembers and even someone from BYU had been emailing the ICE NetRep and asking questions on the mailing list. And then for about a year after ICE folded, Ichabod and Van were still on the mailing list helpfully answering questions until the players decided that they didnt like (or understand?) the ICE rulings and they wanted to change things. And they basically ran Ichabod out of town. So no wonder the rules are so confusing when the original CoE wanted to create contradictions on purpose.

And now again, the CoE appoints top competitive players, who can't be bothered to read or understand how ICE issued rulings, and can't be bothered to read page 20 of the METW rulesbook to come in and helpfully make decisions.

I can't ever know peoples true motivations. I just know that people misunderstood the rules, created contradictions that didnt need to be there, most of these contradictions favored competitive decks, and my time and the time of plenty of other players was wasted because of it. And new players have been put off from the game because of it as well.

[CDavis7M]

but there's been one person expressing their doubts about me because he doesn't know me, and another one expressing his doubts because of who I am and where I come from.

If you took ICE's official NetRep quiz, maybe that would dispel a bit of doubt. It's a quick and easy test. And it's official.

I can understand everyone's doubts, but right now the best I can do is accomplish my task as well as I humanly can. All I ask for is some patience and positivity. I'm intending to do a complicated task and I need mental space and peace. If I use my time to discuss absolutely everything in these forums, I'll have none of those, and the community will be left again with no one making certain decisions that could modify their games or their deck building.

It seems like you think you're the community's savior, but do you really think that no one else has spent time on this complicated task and figured it out? Despite having to unlearn misunderstandings perpetuated by the CoE Netreps.

But you probably will need time if you haven't already read the 7,476 pages of ICE's rulings. Probably could skip some but I can tell you that it would be helpful to read more than just the Digests.

What are you trying to figure out? I've already thought about it and looked through all of the rules and books on that issue. Ask for help if you need it. I've already tried to explain how ICE's digests and the CRF actually work but seems like you weren't interested in learning. Or if you want to spend a lot of time upfront and then I'll explain any mistakes afterwards that is fine too.

The bottom line is that Middle-earth CCG has rules and the rules will always be official and how the game is played because any new player is going to be using those rules and old players follow the rules as well. A ruling from a NetRep is not official if it contradicts the rules. And especially not when it misunderstands the rules. It would be one thing if the CoE wanted to institute balancing changes. ICE did not have enough time for Balrog to be balanced as Fallen-wizards were. But that I haven't seen. And maybe that is where your expertise really is.

[sarma72]

my humble opinion: can we not have another person helping you?

[Manuel]

What are you trying to figure out? I've already thought about it and looked through all of the rules and books on that issue. Ask for help if you need it. I've already tried to explain how ICE's digests and the CRF actually work but seems like you weren't interested in learning.

Then, why didn't you apply for being the new NetRep?

[Manuel]

my humble opinion: can we not have another person helping you?

Well, I already have people helping me. Sergio Martínez "Kodi" is also a member of the team, and I have Pedro Mellado and Marcos Cáceres as advisors. I also have no problem asking other people from outside the team if I'm not sure of something. I don't pretend to act like I know everything. In fact, I don't But I think I'm good directing a group of people working together and distributing tasks.

[Thuarval]

As a player I would want an arbiter other than my opponent.

Absolutely this. I played in US Nationals back in... 95/96? against Ichabod, who, despite my (rules-based) protestations ruled in the instance that he could indeed move to Mount Doom with Starter Movement and dunk the Ring... which he did. Lol. I wasn't as amused then as I am now.

There was no US Nationals in '95. If you played Ichabod at the '96 Nationals then Ichabod played correctly. There was no basis for your protest in the rules. The Gorgoroth rule was not implemented by the Council of Lorien until 1997 and Ichabod was the one announcing it.

I find that recognizing the history of the changes and clarifications overtime was essential in understanding how the rules work. Not just in understanding what the correct version of the rule is and how it works compared to past versions, but in understanding how the Designers themselves interpreted the game mechanics and rules and how they adapted the changes to fit those.

Then I like to think protest helped the correction along. I dont remember the exact year. GenCon was in Milwaukee. Got a cool "Wizard's Ring" though, which my son subsequently lost. Oh well. The situation did put me off the tournament scene though, and it was my last until a few years ago at Lure. Taught me not to take it so serious though, so all is well that ends well, as they say.

[marcos]

my humble opinion: can we not have another person helping you?

some people from this forum has already been asked for help and refused the offer by the way... Also not to mention that even Ichabod himself was contacted and was glad to help eventually (tho he admits he hasn't been in contact with the game mechanichs for many many years, and is unsure that will be of any help).

[sarma72]

my humble opinion: can we not have another person helping you?

Well, I already have people helping me. Sergio Martínez "Kodi" is also a member of the team, and I have Pedro Mellado and Marcos Cáceres as advisors. I also have no problem asking other people from outside the team if I'm not sure of something. I don't pretend to act like I know everything. In fact, I don't But I think I'm good directing a group of people working together and distributing tasks.

Yes, in fact I would suggest that your role should be that of a) identifying contentious issues in the game, b) facilitate a discussion around it, c) elaborate options to move forward given the input from b) and d) arrive at a resolution through some sort of poll/vote/consensus with the community. The last bit, d), is admittedly the hardest. I don't have a solution in mind, but I'm happy to tease that out!

[CDavis7M]

If the NetRep refers to the various published rules, glosses the terms used and advises on linguistic matters, preempts questions of textual development and matters of chronology, gives a rationale rooted in fundamental principles, and explains the consistency with other rulings founded on those same principles then arbitration is moot as the reader will understand how the game works for themselves. There are plenty of examples.

But if not, someone else can. Could even arrange it something like:

1 • SOURCES & RULINGS
2 • RULE & CARD INTERACTIONS
3 • EFFECTS OF EVENTS
4 • CHAIN OF EFFECTS
5 • RESTRICTIONS ON PLAYING CHARACTERS
6 • RESTRICTIONS ON ACTIONS
7 • RESTRICTIONS IN THE SITE PHASE
8 • DISCARD vs. CANCELLATION
9 • ACTIVE CONDITIONS
10 • PASSIVE CONDITIONS
11 • THE HAZARD LIMIT
12 • HERO & MINION RESOURCE RESTRICTIONS
13 • FALLEN-WIZARD RESTRICTIONS

[Manuel]

If the NetRep refers to the various published rules, glosses the terms used and advises on linguistic matters, preempts questions of textual development and matters of chronology, gives a rationale rooted in fundamental principles, and explains the consistency with other rulings founded on those same principles then arbitration is moot as the reader will understand how the game works for themselves. There are plenty of examples.

But if not, someone else can. Could even arrange it something like:

1 • SOURCES & RULINGS
2 • RULE & CARD INTERACTIONS
3 • EFFECTS OF EVENTS
4 • CHAIN OF EFFECTS
5 • RESTRICTIONS ON PLAYING CHARACTERS
6 • RESTRICTIONS ON ACTIONS
7 • RESTRICTIONS IN THE SITE PHASE
8 • DISCARD vs. CANCELLATION
9 • ACTIVE CONDITIONS
10 • PASSIVE CONDITIONS
11 • THE HAZARD LIMIT
12 • HERO & MINION RESOURCE RESTRICTIONS
13 • FALLEN-WIZARD RESTRICTIONS

Not sure if you've seen my last question:

Why didn't you apply for being the NetRep, then?

And seeing this last post, I could add:

Why did you refuse the offer to help the new team, then?

[Kodi]

Hi everyone, I'm Kodi and I'm a member of the NetRep team, developer of meccg.es, maker of Remastered Cards, World Champion 21, youtube teacher for players, and a community man.

I recognize that the members of the Spanish community are currently not very well known on the platforms used by the international community such as this forum, discord or facebook. Just as the Spanish community hardly knows international people, but here we are for the common good

Personally, I am not here because I am the most knowledgeable, as many of you know, but I can guarantee that we know very well how to find the answers and how to put them at the service of the community. If you don't know the work we have done so far for the community, give us a chance because even if we make mistakes, we can always correct them.

Although it seems like a utopia, I would like to invite you to help by being constructive and tell you that our doors will be open to suggestions and respectful opinions. You all have my contact and Manuel's.

I take this opportunity to thank Eric and Wolfgang from the CoE, because despite being attacked countless times, in the current difficult situation they have made a brave decision to help the community. The easiest thing for them would have been to look the other way and ignore the need for official answers. In the end let's not forget that the CoE are people like you, who without receiving anything in return have to deal with all the egos of this community.

Anyway, if you don't like the work we do, there will be an election soon and you will be able to vote for your candidates, and request another NetRep Team, if anyone dares to get into this mess.

And finally, I would like to invoke all the people who never speak in this forum to know their opinion, since from my point of view they are not given space and are overshadowed by people who speak louder.

If this calms down a bit, soon we will put an email for your inquiries. If there is no calm, we will not be able to work. And if what you want is for us not to work, some of you are doing very well because we spend more time controlling this fire than anything else.

Sincerely, your friend and neighbor Kodi-man

[Theo]

Again, I think you folks want to help, and I can appreciate that intent, as well as taking the time to respond with more of your reflections on your perspectives.

I claim no representation of CDavis7M, nor any others, but the discussion already gave several reasonable answers to your recent questions about NetRep membership. I’ll add my own reflections.

1. Impropriety --- This is an improperly assigned NetRep team for an invalid Council. Getting more people on the team will not bring any more legitimacy. Of course, the invalidities are not your doing. But you might have politely encouraged the request to be reiterated following Charter procedures after validating a new Council.
2. NetRep Expectations --- It seems the notion of the NetRep has been romanticized such that some desire it "to make things better" without an accurate understanding of what has contributed to the extent of the mess: the player-based NetRep rulings! When I look back, it appears CoE governance has always has an errant approach to handling rules: without judges, it is Rule by the Loud and Intimidating, and so NetReps are appointed to be even Louder and More Intimidating to keep the rest in line. Again, not your doing. But a NetRep team composition will not alter the fantasies of those demanding the CoE’s idea of a NetRep, nor remove the publish or perish conflict of interest from that source.
3. Contributions --- How would others becoming NetReps help accomplish their goals better than they could already accomplish without being NetReps, and with fewer risks to community alienation? You ceded that it may be a challenge to satisfy all global-player parties; which suggests to me that choosing to authoritatively dictate to the global-player community is probably not the right solution. Anything else needs no NetRep title. The forums and discord already enable someone wanting more certainty about how an adjudicator of an event will handle a certain rule to just ask! Cardnum already enables someone lacking confidence in an adjudication system to decide not to join that particular event, without losing any investment traveling and rooming for a weekend of events. If they want, they can host their own event and arbitrate it however they desire, with the requirement to themselves and participants of nothing more than an internet-capable browser (and donations to rezwits for running his server), not even software installation. The global community has been here for years; certain individuals just haven't updated their 90s era mentality yet.

[CDavis7M]

First, I recognize I am a heated, because I am annoyed. And that was no fault of the people here, so my reaction was uncalled for.

Reasons why I am annoyed have been mentioned already. And it is good to help others so I am happy for players of the community to help. But I only wish I had been helped rather than hindered, and I would not want the same to happen again.

Maybe I am completely wrong, but I had the same thoughts many have until after much time and effort spent learning, unlearning, and then relearning, I have none of those thoughts.

I'm here in Feb. 2019 and I can't even find errata. Thanks to Theo and Kober for pointing me to the CoE digests viewtopic.php?f=68&t=3715

And I'm digging though these and then in Jul 2019 I'm asking about the ICE rulings and CRF and no one I ask knows how it works viewtopic.php?p=31992#p31992

And then though Sept 2019 I'm finding and reading the ICE rulings on the usenet and those on the mailing list and I post about it viewtopic.php?f=68&p=32654#p32651

But even after reading through these rulings,but in 2019 I had the same opinion that players in 1996 had, in 2002, in 2008, in 2018, and 2022. viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3926. I thought Ichabod was making up rulings (he wasn't) and I thought the game designers didn't know what they were doing (spoilers: they do).

And then one day I realized that the inconsistency wasn't from the designers, it was from the CoE NetReps. But what's interesting is that in the beginning they did know and then at some point forgot (or worse), around 2006 or 2008.

So then I went back to the beginning with a post from Deane Begiebing (in the METW rules, credited for Marketing, Operations & Sales and Proofreading), about NetRep Scott Frazer (play tester):

This message comes to you from Deane Begiebing, ICE Inc Sales Manager. I
have appointed Scott Frazer (sfr...@comet.net) as our netrep, and he gave me
this email address as the place to send CCG articles or announcements.

Here's a brief announcement from ICE, 12/6/95:
**********************************
1. Our netrep on the internet newsgroups is Scott Frazer
(sfr...@comet.net). Also, official on-line postings from ICE Inc. will be
done from screen name: met...@aol.com.

2. Our current plans are to release the card list on-line on December 15th,
it will also be in Scrye #12. We will not be sending card lists to
individuals by email or snail mail, we just do not have the resources.

3. The web page is not yet launched, but should be in 10 - 14 days. We'll
let you know when we have the url.

4. We are not yet able to answer rules questions by phone, however we will
take questions addressed to our "met...@aol.com" email address (MetW ICE on
aol), or to our PO Box 1605, Charlottesville, VA 22902 snail mail address.
Our netrep on the newsgroups is Scott Frazer (sfr...@comet.net) and he will
be covering questions there (or forwarding them to ICE design team).


That's all the news for now....enjoy those cards!

Deane from ICE Sales
********************

So then I started reading from the beginning. Everything. People getting the cards, reading about it in magazines (remember those, those were cool, sometimes you'd get a card in it), people asking for card lists, probably the first rules shenanigan of going first, playing a character, then transferring minor items while discarding cards (using the # on the right hand side) to exhaust your deck to win automatically, favorite questions being about Thorin and blue mountain dwarves, if Galadriel is not at Lorien, into The Dragons and Unlimited, changes to the on guard rules, changes to movement and joining companies, Scott gone Ichabod in, Fatty Bolger being lost then stolen, Dragon hoards disappear immediately when the dragon is defeated -- "this makes no sense!" probably the most hated ruling, War Hosts is coming (just kidding), lidless eye, what a conversation about evil elves and there was some other one about women, orc discard on body checks, then MELE CRF changed this and other things, plus rulings on passive conditions, no wait, ICE meant active conditions (but where did that come from anyway; hint: MELE companion), dwar in needs a mode (hint: it was not a rules change), rank upon rank vs ready to his hill, the mailing list started, asking about the fallen wizard white hand symbol was probably the 2nd most favorite question, fallen wizards nerfed, Ichabod out (or promoted) and Van in, then ICE asks the players questions about nerfing FW further on the mailing list and then proceeded to implement a change that no one mentioned, next favorite question is when is the balrog coming, and then when MECCG is finally dead (In denial) it can no longer die by errata and so ICE puts errata against the disappearing dragon hoard.

So I see some things are being changed and some things seem like changes. But now I'm recognizing that most things are actually not changes like I first thought they were. So then I go back to every time Ichabod was wrong and the designers came back with their rulings, or when he was right, or when he was right and they changed the rules.

And then I go back through the ICE rulings I thought were crap before and I drop my complaints one by one until I accept that yes, the Designers knew what they were doing and that Ichabod was mostly right. Van was OK. And so was Scott.

The whole point of whatever I just rambled was that knowing where the rulings in the CRF came from and how they got there made me recognize what they were actually saying with the context of having read most of the rulings that originated the entries in the CRF. And that context is missing from the CRF and it leads to confusion. And not recognizing the difference between the types of "clarifications" (ones which changed the rules and the ones that did not) leads to confusion. And not recognizing what errata is and how its different from a clarification that changed the rules leads to confusion. And not recognizing the difference between a ruling from a NetRep and a ruling coming from the Designers leads to confusion.

So when someone came in and was not seeing this how I saw it, and to my mind was on the same path as the past CoE NetReps, I was annoyed. Sorry.

[CDavis7M]

Why didn't you apply for being the NetRep, then?

I don't think its a position that can be applied for. The Charter says that the ROC appoints the NetRep (it's not a vote by the Council) and the Council's term ended in 2021. Those are just reasons putting aside my annoyance. And if the job of the netrep is to discuss the rules and answer questions. I'm here discussing rules with Konrad all the time and answering questions on Facebook, Discord, and BGG.

Why did you refuse the offer to help the new team, then?

I never said I wouldn't help. You can ask a question. But I think it would be weird for a team member to speak against the decision of the team lead. Especially when I don't know them. Especially when I have different priorities (coming to a decision vs discussing). So it doesn't make sense for me.

The NetRep has never been a person to make the rules. That's not how it worked under ICE. And that's now how it worked under the original CoE charter (though maybe in practice it was different), and that's not how it works under the current CoE Charter.

If you give a man a fish, he will eat for a day, if you teach a man that Fram Framson is not a Hobbit, he will never start the game with Thrall of the Voice on a Troll.

And what's that poem in LotR

O! Wanderers in the shadowed land
despair not! For though dark they stand,
all woods there be must end at last,
and see the open sun go past:
the setting sun, the rising sun,
the day's end, or the day begun.
For east or west all woods must fail...
then he was hit with 1 strike at 12.

[Kodi]

Hi Theo, I will try to answer one of your questions as well as I can and the other ones will be answered by Manuel .

[*] Impropriety --- This is an improperly assigned NetRep team for an invalid Council. Getting more people on the team will not bring any more legitimacy. Of course, the invalidities are not your doing. But you might have politely encouraged the request to be reiterated following Charter procedures after validating a new Council.

This is my interpretation of the (hard) process to become NetRep team:

1. We wanted to apply for NetRep Team 9 months ago. It was a challenge. Don't think we had favoritism because we had to explain our project a lot. We had to convince certain members of the necessity of a NetRep. We had to deal with the fears. We had to push CoE members to work on this.

2. We were aware of the expiry of the current period of the CoE, but there was a Charter sentence, as you know, that opened the possibility:

The acting Council shall remain in office until a new Council is elected.

3. As you know and as redacted in the Charter:

The ROC may appoint a spokesperson during each session whose duties shall consist of... ...The title of said office shall be NetRep.

Notice that the word "NetRep" is not determined by us, it must be the title (for the moment)

4. Then, with the current active CoE and the ROC deciding to appoint Manuel, that was enough for the process, and I think that's the right way to go under the Charter. (Would you maybe have preferred it this way?)

5. Finally, due to exceptional situation, CoE members were worried about the reception in community and prefered make a vote instead of a simple appointment by the ROC. The vote was suggested to reinforce the decision and try to be fair with community.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4640

In conclusion:

Of course, there were several ways to make this appointment, perhaps wait for the new Coe... (how long?)

CoE and us, tried to do the best we could, but I think any procedure wouldn't be good for everybody, and we made a decision....

I myself prefer a NetRep in the community and CoE official rulings.

I understand the other reasons, that's just the way I see it.

Thanks for your input