Monstrosity of Diverse Shape - memory of cards

[Konrad Klar]

The Balrog: Monstrosity of Diverse Shape
Rarity: Rare, Precise: R

Hazard: Permanent-event

Unique. Spawn. The Drowning-deeps and Remains of Thangorodrim each have an additional : Spawn-2 strikes with 15/9 prowess/body. In addition, once per turn the hazard player may use one against the hazard limit to play a Wolf or Animal hazard creature from his discard pile. This card must have already attacked the company this turn.

[...]

Cards in the discard pile do not remember how they were played.

If Morgul-rats has was played against a company, then it was discarded (attack has been canceled or has not been defeated), the Morgul-rats card does not remember whether it was played against the company.
There may be one, two or three copies of Morgul-rats in discard pile and none of them remembers how it was played.

a. If it would be an obstacle, then " once per turn the hazard player may use one against the hazard limit to play a Wolf or Animal hazard creature from his discard pile" would be unusable.

b. If it is not an obstacle, then it is enough that the Morgul-rats was attacking the company and identical Morgul-rats is in discard pile. Morgul-rats could be even eliminated, or it could stay in play with Elven Rope or "off to the side" with Bring Our Curses Home.

Other possibilities?

EDIT: Changed the title of topic.

[Bandobras Took]

The effect in question *requires* that the card remember how it was played despite being in the discard pile.

Therefore, in this instance, the effect of the spawn card overrides the normal rule.

[Konrad Klar]

If there are multiple copies of creature in question, how to distinguish between them which was attacking the company?

Therefore, in this instance, the effect of the spawn card overrides the normal rule.

Some example of situation where the normal rule has some meaning and takes effect?

[Bandobras Took]

You may not use Smoke Rings to recycle Twilight even if it was a resource when played.

[Konrad Klar]

Is it different for Smoke Rings and previously played Twilight that currently is in sideboard?

[Bandobras Took]

That's rather far afield of the original question, but I would not expect a card in the discard pile that has no memory of how it was played to suddenly regain that memory upon being transferred to the sideboard.

Monstrosity enables certain cards to remember how they were played.

Twilight was only mentioned in response to your request for an example of where card memory makes a difference.

[Konrad Klar]

What about The Hunt?

Dark Minions: The Hunt
Rarity: Rare, Precise: R3

Resource: Short-event

Playable on Alatar during the organization phase. Name a specific hazard creature card your opponent revealed to you through a mechanism of the game and discarded. Unless eliminated or prevented from being in play, your opponent then finds this particular card (reshuffling his play deck if searched). This creature immediately attacks Alatar as though he were a one-character company. Alatar cannot use or benefit from spells against the attack. If untapped, tap Alatar afterwards.

Is it another example of card that specifically requires other card in discard pile/sideboard/hand to remember how it was played? Not necessarily "played", what happened to the card in past. Strictly speaking The Hunt checks for "hazard creature card your opponent revealed to you through a mechanism of the game and discarded".

The creature that "already attacked the company this turn" may be the creature set "off to the side" with Bring Our Curses Home played on the company some turns ago. Strictly speaking Monstrosity of Diverse Shape checks whether the creature "already attacked".

The Hunt says even "hazard creature card", Monstrosity of Diverse Shape says only "hazard creature" (without "card").

I do not know whether it is far afield of the original question. Title of topic contains phrase "memory of cards". That or another understanding of what actually are possibilities and limitations of effect of Monstrosity of Diverse Shape may have impact on understanding of The Hunt and the CRF rule (and potentially on understanding of other things).

[Bandobras Took]

The Hunt does not seem relevant. Cards in the discard pile do not remember how they were played. They can remember whether they were revealed all they want.

As far as hazard creature vs hazard creature card, Monstrosity requires the hazard player to play the hazard creature. I am uncertain there is a method for playing a hazard creature that does not involve an actual card being played. There are many methods to create hazard creature attacks without a hazard creature card, but that is not the same thing as playing a hazard creature.

[Konrad Klar]

There are many methods to create hazard creature attacks without a hazard creature card, but that is not the same thing as playing a hazard creature.

"Creature attack" and "attack of creature" are not synonyms. Creature attack created by Smaug Ahunt is not attack of creature.
I think that it is not matter of controversy.

And there are few methods of causing an attack of creature without playing the creature at the same time. Foes Shall Fall, Bring Our Curses Home cause an attack of creature already in play; played earlier. Exhalation of Decay, In Great Wrath, Long Dark Reach are not creatures, but they cause playing a creature that attacks.

Monstrosity of Diverse Shape does not check whether some creature was played against a company. If the creature was set "off to the side" with Bring Our Curses Home and was attacking the company, has not been defeated and then (in the same turn) Bring Our Curses Home has been discarded, the creature card is in discard pile.
Can the creature be played against the company according to the effect of Monstrosity of Diverse Shape?
I think that it can be so played. You may have a different opinion.

If it can be so played:

- what if other copies of the card are in discard pile? Must the creature be exactly the same card that was attacking the company this turn? How to distinguish between two or three copies, which is the one in the question? Basing on position in discard pile?

- what if in meantime play deck has been exhausted and the particular card has been moved to sideboard but other copies are in discard pile? Are they distinguishable from the exactly the same physical creature card that was attacking the company this turn?

The Hunt does not seem relevant. Cards in the discard pile do not remember how they were played. They can remember whether they were revealed all they want.

The Hunt, if to take literally "particular card", imposes such requirements - that physical card but not its copy.

[Bandobras Took]

You seem to have misunderstood my reply.

Since The Hunt only requires to a card to have been revealed, there is no problem. Cards in the discard pile remember how they were revealed.

Since Monstrosity requires you to play the card, there is no worry about non-card creature attacks when selecting a card for Monstrosity to use. It doesn't matter one way or the other whether the initial attack was the result of direct creature play or enabled by another card, so long as the attack involved the creature card.

Ideally, one would use the exact card, but when such is impossible in actual practice, any one copy of the card in the discard may be designated as the card in question.

[Konrad Klar]

Since The Hunt only requires to a card to have been revealed, there is no problem. Cards in the discard pile remember how they were revealed.

Maybe... they remember how they were revealed, when discarded... everything except how they were played.

Regardless of above, The Hunt says "Name a specific hazard creature card", "then finds this particular card".
Literally "this particular card" is not the same as "the card of this particular name". For non-unique cards this makes a practical difference.
That but not another copy of Morgul-rats. Hardly doable task - tracking of route of "this particular card" in discard pile, deck, sideboard since the moment when this card has been discarded.

"This card must have already attacked the company this turn" does not differ much.

Ideally, one would use the exact card, but when such is impossible in actual practice, any one copy of the card in the discard may be designated as the card in question.

If " any one copy of the card in the discard may be designated as the card in question" is acceptable then "This card must have already attacked the company this turn" is not read literally but as:
"This creature/card of this name must have already attacked the company this turn"
instead.

[Bandobras Took]

Since The Hunt only requires to a card to have been revealed, there is no problem. Cards in the discard pile remember how they were revealed.

Maybe... they remember how they were revealed, when discarded... everything except how they were played.

That is exactly how I understand it. The rule was instituted specifically for cards that can be played in different ways, e.g. Twilight, to prevent them being considered as anything but what the card design indicates while in the discard pile.

Regardless of above, The Hunt says "Name a specific hazard creature card", "then finds this particular card".
Literally "this particular card" is not the same as "the card of this particular name". For non-unique cards this makes a practical difference.
That but not another copy of Morgul-rats. Hardly doable task - tracking of route of "this particular card" in discard pile, deck, sideboard since the moment when this card has been discarded.

I agree with both points, which is why the practical solution is to designate a given card as "the" card or "this" card if there are multiple copies available at the time. The mechanics of actually playing the game often make finding one specific previously discarded copy of a card nigh impossible to do accurately.

[Konrad Klar]

OK.
If the creature card played according to effect of Monstrosity of Diverse Shape does not need to be exactly (physically) the same card (i.e. a copy of the card is sufficient) AND the effect of Monstrosity of Diverse Shape does not require the card to be discarded, why it would bee illegal to play Morgul-rats from discard pile if the Morgul-rats that was attacking the company this turn is still in play with Elven Rope or "off to the side" with Bring Our Curses Home, or is eliminated?

[Bandobras Took]

In cases where the creature that attacked isn't in the discard pile in the first place, one cannot initiate Monstrosity's action.

In cases where the creature that attacked *is* in the discard pile and it is impossible to tell which copy is the one, that is the time to simply choose one copy to be the creature.

[Konrad Klar]

What about situation where in result of tapping of Regiment of Black Crows, Fell Turtle has been returned to hand, then discarded at the finish of company's M/H phase? Can Fell Turtle be played according to the effect of Monstrosity of Diverse Shape in next company's M/H phase (in the same turn)?