[FW] Cards that targets continously

[Konrad Klar]

A card that is played on a card continuously targets the card it is on.

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Note: The restrictions below do not apply to Spells and Magic.
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Targeting Site and Resource Cards—A hero resource card may not target/affect a minion site card or a minion resource card A minion resource card may not target /affect a hero site card or hero resource card

White Hand Rules, Playing and Using Resource, Targeting Site and Resource Cards:
change both instances of "resource card may not target/affect" to "resource event card may not target/affect."

What happens if on hero version of FW site card is played Houses of Healing and/or No Strangers at This Time and FW player is forced to changing site to minion version due to Heart Grown Cold?

Illegally targeting events are immediatelly discarded, or remains in play, or (third option) Heart Grown Cold cannot be played in such case?

Any other ideas?

[Bandobras Took]

I thought when a card is discarded/returned to the location deck, all cards on it are discarded unless otherwise noted.

So if I had Houses of Healing on the Hero Wellinghall and Heart Grown Cold was played, all cards played on the Hero Wellinghall would be discarded when it is returned to the location deck and would not be around to conflict with the Minion Wellinghall.

Of course, I'm probably mistaken.

[Konrad Klar]

Smart and simple solution. If correct then we have probably one other method of destroying Wizardhavens based on - Mischief in Mean Way or on - Chambers in The Rolay Court.

[Bandobras Took]

In those cases, the sites are no longer , but rather Wizard and will not be affected.

[Konrad Klar]

I'm not sure if current site type or type of site card counts here.
In first case even hero with Rebuilt The Town would need to be exchanged and playing of Hold Rebuilt and Reapaired would be problematic because minion is generally unaccessible for FW.

[Bandobras Took]

Fallen-wizard players must use minion site cards for hero Havens . If a Fallen-wizard has more than 4 stage points, his player must also use minion site cards for Free-holds . If a Fallen-wizard has more than 7 stage points, his player must also use minion site cards for Border-holds.

Since it specifies Hero Havens, any site card made into a haven is safe.

But if you've Rebuilt a hero Ruins & Lairs, I'd see it as the following:

Heart Grown Cold checks for a Border Hold, and the site fits.

You exchange the Hero site for the Minion one. In the process, Rebuild the Town is discarded.

You are now at a Minion Ruins and Lairs, and likely screwed.

If Heart Grown Cold is in play, it seems that Rebuild the Town would defeat itself -- though it could be a somewhat long-winded way of playing both hero and minion resources at a site in the same turn. Double dealing, after all, has to be played in the organization phase, and this could accomplish the same thing in the site phase.

[Konrad Klar]

Since it specifies Hero Havens, any site card made into a haven is safe.

But if you've Rebuilt a hero Ruins & Lairs, I'd see it as the following:

Heart Grown Cold checks for a Border Hold, and the site fits.

My impression is that it generally checks for site cards, although I may be wrong.

• A Fallen-wizard’s non-overt companies must use hero sites for sites that are not
Ruins & Lairs.
• A Fallen-wizard’s companies may freely use either minion or hero Ruins & Lairs
sites on a site per site basis (subject to the restriction below).
• If your hero (or minion) version of a site is in play or in your discard pile, you may not use your minion (or hero) version of the same site.

The play of certain cards can change the type of sites that your companies may use (e.g., Plotting Ruin, Heart Grown Cold, etc.). When this happens, immediately exchange any affected site cards already in play with the corresponding site cards of the proper type..

Here words "site cards" and "sites" are used interchangeably. Confused.

[Manuel]

I believe you don't have to discard the resources played on a site when it's switched. Looks like "switch" is different than "discard and play another site".

i.e. you still keep Double dealing on Bag End after your opp plays Heart Crown Cold.

[Konrad Klar]

I believe too, especially that concept of "returning to LD/discardning then playing other version" produces several other funny problems - for instance after discarding tapped copy of site you have it in discard pile and according to other WH rules you cannot play other version.

However problem of resources targeting site of opposite alignment still persists.

[Bandobras Took]

A permanent-event played on a site affects only the copy of the site it is played on, unless otherwise specified. A permanent-event not played on a site affects all versions of affected sites.

The minion version of the site is not the copy of the site on which the events are played.

I would stand by my original premise: the events are discarded when the site is changed.

My impression is that it generally checks for site cards, although I may be wrong.

Nothing in the text of Heart Grown Cold indicates that.

Of course, if you play Rebuild the Town on Wondrous Maps, a problem might arise.

You must use minion site cards for Hero Havens, Free-holds and Border-holds.

I'll have more thoughts later. Have to go back to work.

[Konrad Klar]

A permanent-event played on a site affects only the copy of the site it is played on, unless otherwise specified. A permanent-event not played on a site affects all versions of affected sites.

The minion version of the site is not the copy of the site on which the events are played.

I would stand by my original premise: the events are discarded when the site is changed.

Ok, if site cards would be actually discarded/returned to LD when rules or other cards effects forces using other version, then obviously yes.

However second explanation is that exchanging of card is process similar to replacing Strider with Aragorn II, where cards played on Strider are transfered to Aragorn II.

My impression is that it generally checks for site cards, although I may be wrong.

Nothing in the text of Heart Grown Cold indicates that.

Of course, if you play Rebuild the Town on Wondrous Maps, a problem might arise.

Nothing? Certainly Hero Haven is not type of site that may exist in play apart from Hero Haven card.

From other hand sites like Refuge and Wondrous Maps are not site cards.

[Bandobras Took]

A permanent-event played on a site affects only the copy of the site it is played on, unless otherwise specified. A permanent-event not played on a site affects all versions of affected sites.

The minion version of the site is not the copy of the site on which the events are played.

I would stand by my original premise: the events are discarded when the site is changed.

Ok, if site cards would be actually discarded/returned to LD when rules or other cards effects forces using other version, then obviously yes.

However second explanation is that exchanging of card is process similar to replacing Strider with Aragorn II, where cards played on Strider are transfered to Aragorn II.

You may bring Aragorn II into play with Strider's company, removing Strider from the game and automatically transferring all cards on Strider to Aragorn II.

Without the Bolded text, all cards on Strider would be discarded. A specific text overrides the general rule, but the general rule remains.

[Bandobras Took]

If your hero (or minion) version of a site is in play or in your discard pile, you may not use you minion (or hero) version of the same site.

The play of certain cards can change the type of sites that your companies mau use (e.g. Plotting Ruin, Heart Grown Cold, etc.). When this happens, immediately exchange any affected site cards already in play with the corresponding site cards of the proper type.

Since you exchange sites, the hero version of the site goes into whatever pile the minion version came from. So if I'm at a tapped hero Dunharrow, I'll exchange it with the Minion Dunharrow, which is in my location deck. The hero version returns to the location deck and the minion version comes into play tapped.

There's no exploit there, though, since the new site comes in with the same orientation as the old and will be sent to the discard pile when you leave.

This card is used as a site card, Ruins & Lairs [R]

So there's still the issue of how Heart Grown Cold interacts with a Rebuilt Wondrous Maps.

[Konrad Klar]

Ok, you are right. But it is not sure that exchanging sites follow this simple procedure - returning to LD/discardning then playing new copy of site.

This whole procedure was not precisely described in ICE sources. It was played several years nad players use it intuitively.

However some details requires more precise insight.

I'll have more thoughts later. Have to go back to bed... (CET).

[Bandobras Took]

The keyword in the rule I quoted is "exchange," I think. That implies that the cards in question switch places, wherever they are.

P.S. I think the Rebuild the Town/Wondrous Maps question is sufficient to go to the NetRep team, so I'm going to forward it to them.