A cards that allow for taking an action

The place to ask and debate all rules issues related to MECCG.
Post Reply
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

Theo wrote: Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:23 am
Konrad Klar wrote: Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:41 am
Theo wrote: Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:21 am This is concerning from the viewpoint of how the rest of the playerbase is supposed to know which way to interpret each card, besides tracking Konrad down and hoping his answers are consistent.
I am not forcing anyone to follow my viewpoint. And I'm trying to be fair.
If I'm unable to find an exact rule that backs my point, the I says that my opinion should be treated as original researches.

Some regularities are not codified**. This does not mean that they do not exist.
So until they will be codified, I only can say "try to play consistently" and I can present what consistency I see.
I totally appreciate your perspectives. But this case is unusually lacking of indications within the rules texts to guide players in new situations. Other than some authoritative figure (you, CoE, whoever) going through every card and every situation ahead of time, players will be forced to argue about which cards should be interpreted which way. At the end of the day, the answer to "Where is the consistency?" is, "There isn't any." At least, not objective consistency, which I think it critical for interpretable/enforceable rules.
So there are codified regularities with examples.

1.
Unless stated otherwise in text of a card, if a short-event states that player may take some action, the action may be taken only at time of execution of the short-event.

2.
Unless stated otherwise in text of a card, if non-short-event card states that player may take some non-standard action (i.e. action that otherwise could not be taken without additional card/effect), player may take the action as long the card is in play (but not at time of execution of the card), under conditions described in the text of the card.

3.
Unless stated otherwise in text of a card, if non-short-event card states that player may take some standard action (i.e. action that otherwise can be taken without additional card/effect at appropriate point of turn), but altered in some way by text of the card, the action may be taken at the point when it otherwise may be taken, and standard conditions of taking the action (other than these altered by text of the card) must be fulfilled.

4.
Non-short-event card may allow or may cause an actions at time of its execution.
Text describing such actions has form of a directive (other than action caused by passive condition).

Examples for (1):
A Chance Meeting allows to play a character when the card executes in chain of effects. Not later

Bounty of the Hoard allows to play an item when the card executes in chain of effects. Not later

Example for (2):
Replacing a site card according to Farmer Maggot text.

Examples for (3):
Bad Company allows for playing an Orcs and Trolls characters. Playing of characters is a standard action. So all standard conditions of playing characters (other than lack permission for playing an Orc and Trolls characters) must be fulfilled.

Safe from the Shadow allows a hero characters for storing a resources in end-of-turn-phase as though it were their organization phase. Storing of resources is standard action. So all standard conditions of storing a resources (other than that it may be done only in organization phase) must be fullfilled.


Examples for (4):
Sacrifice of Form contains the following text that is a directive:.
"All of the strikes from one attack against your Wizard's company fail; +3 to any body checks made to determine of the attack is defeated. Discard the Wizard (i.e., he becomes unrevealed) and any non-item cards he controls. Place any items he controls under this card and keep these off to the side (these items are considered to still be in play)."
It also contains text that describes an action caused by passive condition and condition that activates the action:
"If the Wizard is put back into play, return his items to him and place Sacrifice of Form with him."

Sentence of Gates of Morning after keyword.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
the JabberwocK
Ex Council Chairman
Posts: 1156
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:46 am

I like this Konrad, although I will have to give it some additional thought.

You just created this from scratch? Or did you borrow these ideas from other places?
User avatar
Theo
Posts: 1393
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

I'm rather a believer that short events don't deserve special treatment, but this formalism is self consistent and helpful in framing why you give A Chance Meeting allowances that aren't extended to other character play cards; thanks.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make...
All players are welcome at Meduseld! https://theo-donly.github.io/MECCG/
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

the Jabberwock wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:37 pm I like this Konrad, although I will have to give it some additional thought.

You just created this from scratch? Or did you borrow these ideas from other places?
Idea was a codifying a rules that are respected in the game anyway (in most cases, if not respected consistently).
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
Theo
Posts: 1393
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

(4)---along with the spirit of (1) and (2)---would contradict previous guidance:
CoE #43 wrote: *** No. If you are told to play a card, you must meet all the
conditions for playing a card, including untapped sites. Cards that say
things like "place the card with the company" will not require this,
since you are not playing the card.
Looking at Hour of Need, for example...
Playable on an untapped non‐warrior, non‐Wizard diplomat during the organization phase if you have a faction in your hand. Play
a faction from your hand.
Tap diplomat who then makes an influence attempt on this faction. Count out the number of contiguous
regions from the diplomatʹs site to the site where the faction is normally playable (including the regions containing both sites)‐subtract
two plus this number from the diplomatʹs attempt. If the attempt is unsuccessful, discard the diplomat and faction.
Standalone CoE #43 would say that Hour of Need only works when the faction could be normally played. Terrible. However, the implication from the rest of the card stipulating phase and distance to where the faction is normally playable and the alternative influence attempt might imply that the normal phase and site and influence attempt are not required. However, additional guidance corroborates that the other requirements for (and effects from) card play persist:
ICE Ruling Digest 581 wrote:Cards like Old Road and Hour of Need, if successful, tap the character's site, not the site of the faction being played, right?

*** Yes.

Can these cards be played if the character's site is already tapped?

*** No.
There is no special allowance because this is a short event, or any similar notion. Double Standards.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make...
All players are welcome at Meduseld! https://theo-donly.github.io/MECCG/
Post Reply

Return to “Rules Questions & Debate (unofficial)”