Long dark reach + Monstrosity of diverse shape

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panotxa
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Hi!

Imagine this scenario: Monstrosity of diverse shape on table, I play Long Dark Reach and an Animal or Spider creature revealed is used to create the attack. Should I use one against the HL (by Monstrosity) to play (if playable) that Animal/Spider?

Monstrosity states "This card must have already attacked the company this turn"... Long Dark Reach says "One revealed Nazgûl, Dragon, or a non‐unique creature of your choice immediately attacks the company".

I know that LDR by-passes Stealth because the creature is not considered to be played but revealed. In this case, I'd say that the card has attacked the company this turn and I'm able to replay it through Monstrosity... but I'm not sure of it.

Thanks!

EDIT:

In case I can recycle the creature, and this creature was not originally playable on the company (receives the -4 prowess for LDR), can I replay it through Monstrosity even if it's not playable on the company?
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Konrad Klar
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[NetRep] Official Rulings Digest 120 wrote:[...]
21) I was asked to rule on the topic discussed in the following thread: http://www.meccg.net/dforum/viewtopic.php?p=20758#20758
There are two questions in this thread.
a) Does Long Dark Reach “break” stealth? That is, can Long Dark Reach be used to attack a company that successfully played stealth in the organization phase.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, it can. The creature is not played but revealed. The CRF clarification on Long Dark Reach saying “A creature must be played if there is one available” does not use “play” in the technical sense of bringing a card from the hand into play.
[...]
If I understand, a rationale behind this statement is definition:
CRF, Rulings by Term, Playing a Card wrote:Playing a card is the process of bringing a card from your hand into play.
According to this definition, a creature attacking in result of Long Dark Reach is not considered played, also a player must manage a way of having site cards in hand to be able to play them.
Monstrosity of Diverse Shape wrote:Unique. Spawn. The Drowning-deeps and Remains of Thangorodrim each have an additional automatic-attack: Spawn-2 strikes with 15/9 prowess/body. In addition, once per turn the hazard player may use one against the hazard limit to play a Wolf or Animal hazard creature from his discard pile. This card must have already attacked the company this turn.
Because playing a card "is the process of bringing a card from your hand into play" I have no idea how "to play a Wolf or Animal hazard creature from his discard pile".
CRF, Rulings by Term, Nazgûl wrote:If a Nazgûl is tapped to become a short-event as printed on its card, it turns into a
short-event upon declaration. At this point, the Nazgûl is a short-event just as if had
been played as such from your hand.
And "just as if had been played as such from your hand" resolves to "just as if had been brought into play from your hand as such from your hand".

P.S.
That all to save CRF, Rulings by Term, Playing a Card from errata which would shorten it to just "Playing a card is the process of bringing a card into play".
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panotxa
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Let me re-do my question:

Monstrosity states: "Unique. Spawn. The Drowning-deeps and Remains of Thangorodrim each have an additional automatic-attack: Spawn-2 strikes with 15/9 prowess/body. In addition, once per turn the hazard player may use one against the hazard limit to play a Wolf or Animal hazard creature from his discard pile. This card must have already attacked the company this turn." Underlined is mine.

If I just used a Wolf/Animal with Long Dark Reach, is this Wolf/Animal card considered to have attacked the company and, therefore, is able to be played through Monstrosity from the discard pile?

I'd say that the Wolf/Animal is considered to have attacked the company, but I don't know if the Wolf/Animal card is, because the attack is generated by Long Dark Reach...
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Konrad Klar
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Long Dark Reach does not attack. A creature revealed in result of Long Dark Reach attacks.
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panotxa
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Konrad Klar wrote:Long Dark Reach does not attack. A creature revealed in result of Long Dark Reach attacks.
If the card revealed is the one that attacks, then I'm able to use Monstrosity's effect with that card... :roll:
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Konrad Klar
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The creature card is eligible according to Monstrosity of Diverse Shape's ability.

Whether it may be, or may not be played is matter of definition of "playing a card".
For the same reason for which creature attacking in result of Long Dark Reach may evade effect of Stealth (because a creature is not brought into play from hand, the creature is not considered played), it may be impossible to play anything from other sources (from Discard Pile, from Location Deck etc.).
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Mordakai
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As I see the question:

The creature efectively attacked the company, but it does not comply with the requirements to be played against the company if it is under stealth effect (becasuse you cannot play creatures to that company, it does not matter where it comes from, hand, discard pile or Uranus)
C'mon, not the Elves of Lindon AGAIN...
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Konrad Klar
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Played or not played, a creature revealed in result of Long Dark Reach has attacked a company.

Monstrosity of Diverse Shape does not check whether a creature in Discard Pile was played. It checks whether the creature attacked a company.
(Independently from whole "playing a card" definition problem, this may happen that a creature in Discard Pile has not been played in given turn, but attacked in that turn - in result of Bring Our Curses Home, that has been discarded later [still in the same turn], along with the creature).

Only obstacle may be CRF, Rulings by Term, Playing a Card that excludes possibility of playing a card from sources other than hand.

Previous paragraph is a joke. Regardless of how scrupulously a nonsensical definition will be applied, a results will not be sensible. Scrupulously applying it may only reveal its absurdity. With "Playing a card is the process of bringing a card from your hand into play." the game is unplayable, because players can hardly have a site cards in hand (to be fair I must mention Refuge, Wondrous Maps, Morannon).

Remove "from your hand" from the definition and then the things will return to normality.
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the JabberwocK
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Konrad -

Well said. Your commentary makes perfect sense.

Here is my question:

MECCG is a dead game. The creators of the game (ICE) are no more and there are no new cards being made.

MECCG is only "officially" supported now by the CoE.
Why doesn't the CoE go back and discard/revise all previous rulings that don't make any practical sense?

The "playing from hand" rule above is a perfect candidate for them to address.


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Shapeshifter
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A related question to Monstrosity:

Is it possible "to play a Wolf or Animal hazard creature from his discard pile" as an event?

The only animal creature from the regular sets I can think of that is also playable as an event is Beorning Skin-changers. Beorning Skin-changers cannot be played as a creature and as an event against the same opponent, though. So in regular games my question would probably be moot. In dream card sets, however, there are some wolf and animal creatures that can both be played as a creature or as an event against the same opponent.
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Shapeshifter
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Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2016 8:16 pm Only obstacle may be CRF, Rulings by Term, Playing a Card that excludes possibility of playing a card from sources other than hand.

Previous paragraph is a joke. Regardless of how scrupulously a nonsensical definition will be applied, a results will not be sensible. Scrupulously applying it may only reveal its absurdity. With "Playing a card is the process of bringing a card from your hand into play." the game is unplayable, because players can hardly have a site cards in hand (to be fair I must mention Refuge, Wondrous Maps, Morannon).

Remove "from your hand" from the definition and then the things will return to normality.
@Konrad: What about submitting this one to this year's ARV?
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Konrad Klar
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Shapeshifter wrote: Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:15 pm A related question to Monstrosity:

Is it possible "to play a Wolf or Animal hazard creature from his discard pile" as an event?

The only animal creature from the regular sets I can think of that is also playable as an event is Beorning Skin-changers. Beorning Skin-changers cannot be played as a creature and as an event against the same opponent, though. So in regular games my question would probably be moot. In dream card sets, however, there are some wolf and animal creatures that can both be played as a creature or as an event against the same opponent.
If you are playing a creature, you are not playing an event.

Beorning Skin-changers can be played as a creature against FW player's overt company, then it may be played as short-event against FW player's hero company (even against the same company in the same M/H phase, if the company has become hero in meantime). And vice-vera.
Shapeshifter wrote: Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:22 pm @Konrad: What about submitting this one to this year's ARV?
Thanks for reminding me.
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Shapeshifter
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Konrad Klar wrote: Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:01 pm If you are playing a creature, you are not playing an event.
I was thinking if the text on Monstrosity could also be read as "play a Wolf or Animal hazard creature card". If not, you are right, of course.
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Konrad Klar
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Shapeshifter wrote: Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:03 pm
Konrad Klar wrote: Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:01 pm If you are playing a creature, you are not playing an event.
I was thinking if the text on Monstrosity could also be read as "play a Wolf or Animal hazard creature card". If not, you are right, of course.
If you are playing a creature, you are also effectively playing the creature card.
But if the creature-or-event card was played against a company only as an event in given turn then it is not considered as the card that already attacked the company this turn.
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CDavis7M
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Shapeshifter wrote: Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:15 pm A related question to Monstrosity:

Is it possible "to play a Wolf or Animal hazard creature from his discard pile" as an event?

The only animal creature from the regular sets I can think of that is also playable as an event is Beorning Skin-changers. Beorning Skin-changers cannot be played as a creature and as an event against the same opponent, though. So in regular games my question would probably be moot. In dream card sets, however, there are some wolf and animal creatures that can both be played as a creature or as an event against the same opponent.
It works the other way but not this way. If the creature or event card attacked a company as an event, then MoDS can be used to play that card as a creature. But if the creature or event card attacked a company as a creature, then it can only be played by MoDS as a creature since MoDS only allows playing a creature.
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