A Plethora of Questions....

The place to ask and debate all rules issues related to MECCG.
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Konrad Klar
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Bandobras Took wrote:I do not believe that an event on an item is controlled by a character (directly). It is controlled by the item which is controlled by the character. Thus, while an item is transferred, the event is never transferred, because its direct controller (the item in question) remains the same.
Just that.
When an item is being transferred, an event on the item still remains on the item. Despite of fact that no one is performing an action "transfer an event".
Why event on an item would not remain on the item, when the item is being stored? Similarly: without preforming an action "store an event".

Refrain:
Maybe because "Align Palantír can be stored" which may mean something e.g. exception from not written anywhere rule, that states that events on items are not stored along with the items.
Like "May not be transferred." may mean something e.g. exception from not written anywhere rule, that states, that events controlled by characters may be transferred.
End of refrain.
(without intended sarcasm)

Both "Align Palantír can be stored" and "May not be transferred." may be meaningful or meaningless. There may be, or may not be rationale behind these texts.
Just I am unable to reconstruct such (not written anywhere) rationale (and I do not know any written).
[...] direct controller (the item in question) [...]
Rather host. An item does not control an event placed/played on it, like character does not control an event played/placed on it (e.g. corruption card, cards like Rescue Prisoners are not played/placed on character, they are placed under control of character).
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Konrad Klar
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I do not know, how it change a picture, but there are two versions of Align Palantír.

One from Limited Edition:
Sage only if a Palantír is in his company. Keep with the Palantír; bearer now has the ability to use the Palantír. Discard Align Palantír if the company carrying the Palantír moves. '...For this assuredly is the palantír of Orthanc from the treasury of Elendil, set here by the Kings of Gondor...'-LotRIII
Other from Unlimited Edition:
Sage only if a Palantír is in his company. Keep with the Palantír; bearer now has the ability to use the Palantír. If the Palantír is stored, this card is stored too. Discard Align Palantír if the company carrying the Palantír moves. May not be duplicated on a given Palantír. '...For this assuredly is the palantír of Orthanc from the treasury of Elendil, set here by the Kings of Gondor...'-LotRIII
Align Palantír from Unlimited Edition does not look exactly as it would look version from Limited Edition after applying errata (not only case).
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Bandobras Took
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An event on an item cannot be stored because events cannot be stored unless the card text specifically allows for it. The rule is that unless a non-item card states it can be stored, it may not be stored.
When an item is being transferred, an event on the item still remains on the item. Despite of fact that no one is performing an action "transfer an event".
My point is that there is no need to transfer the event. To transfer an event that is played on an item, one would need to move it to a different item. This does not occur when an item is transferred.
An item does not control an event placed/played on it, like character does not control an event played/placed on it (e.g. corruption card, cards like Rescue Prisoners are not played/placed on character, they are placed under control of character).
Why does an item not control such a card? It is evident that resources can control other resources; a sage ally may well control a permanent event.
MELE Rules wrote:A character's corruption point total can be determined by summing the corruption point values of: the corruption cards under his card and any other cards he controls (e.g., usually items).
This rule implies that characters do indeed control the corruption cards underneath them.
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Konrad Klar
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Bandobras Took wrote:My point is that there is no need to transfer the event. To transfer an event that is played on an item, one would need to move it to a different item. This does not occur when an item is transferred.
My point is that there is no need to store an event played/placed on an item. To store such event, one would need to store it separately from the item. Storing of event played/placed on item may happen when the item is stored.

Similarly: although an event played/placed on item cannot be transferred between characters, apparently its bearer may change:
Andúril, the Flame of the West wrote:Unique. Sage only during the site phase at an untapped site where Information is playable. Tap the sage and the site. Sage makes a corruption check modified by -3. Keep sage tapped until Andúril, the Flame of the West is stored at a Haven [H]. Once stored, you may discard a stored reforging and place Andúril, the Flame of the West with Narsil. In addition to Narsil's effects, Andúril, the Flame of the West gives its bearer 4 marshalling points, +4 prowess (to a maximum of 11), +1 direct influence, and one more corruption point. Andúril, the Flame of the West may be tapped to untap a Dúnadan character in the same company, but its bearer must make a corruption check modified by -1.
Underline mine.

Andúril, the Flame of the West is not being transferred between bearers, but in result of transferring the Narsil its bearer changes.
Bandobras Took wrote:Why does an item not control such a card? It is evident that resources can control other resources; a sage ally may well control a permanent event.
Sage ally may control Dreams of Lore, like sage (non-ally) character. Sage ally does not control When You Know More played on it, like sage (non-ally) character does not control When You Know More played on it.

A cards controlled by an entity are not a cards played or placed on the entity. Items, or allies are not played on character that controls them.
Bandobras Took wrote:
MELE Rules wrote:A character's corruption point total can be determined by summing the corruption point values of: the corruption cards under his card and any other cards he controls (e.g., usually items).
This rule implies that characters do indeed control the corruption cards underneath them.
If "the corruption cards under his card and any other cards he controls" is evidence that a cards that a character controls include a corruption cards, then
Lidless Eye, Starter Rules, The Cards and Decks, Card Combinations wrote:Often combinations of several cards and other actions are required to achieve a desired result.
is evidence that an actions include a cards. Or is evidence that an actions include combinations of several cards. (Depending on what are the combinations the rule is speaking about - combinations of [several cards and other actions], or [combinations of several cards] and other actions).
Lidless Eye, Starter Rules, Corruption, Corruption Checks wrote:When a card or other effect indicates that one of your characters must make a corruption check, you must make a roll (2D6) and add any appropriate modifications.
is evidence that an effects include a cards.

A cards are not an actions, or an effects. E.g. if in result of Parsimony of Seclusion a player is searching for unique Dragon manifestation in Discard Pile, he is also searching for its superset - for card; he is not searching for action, nor for effect.
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the JabberwocK
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Konrad Klar wrote: Because playing of Barrow Blade does not tap a site, Barrow Blade may also be played after facing of all automatic-attacks and before facing of agent attack, and on-guard creature attacks.
(a site is being tapped after successful playing of item, not "to play" item).
So then this is true of any resource which does not tap the site, correct? It can be played after facing auto-attacks but before agent and on-guard creature attacks?
Konrad Klar wrote: Cram card is being discarded at declaration of "untap bearer"* action. The action must resolve in the same chain of effect. Untapping does not happen at declaration.
Similarly a sage is being tapped at declaration of Marvels Told, but discarding event and corruption check of the sage do not happen at declaration.
(from where the idea that "untap bearer" may happen immediately?)
So no for "all before the Mouth of Sauron resolves?".
I am confused. Will you please walk me through a step by step sequence of actions and resolutions in the example I provided so that I can understand? Which items specifically do not resolve before the Mouth of Sauron resolves? Thanks.
the Jabberwock wrote:10) What is the latest point that I may tap a Ranger to fulfill the requirement of the card River? Also, if I have 1 ranger in my company and I tap him during the M/H phase to fulfill the River requirement, can my opponent respond by tapping Adunaphel to tap my Ranger first BEFORE he taps to fulfill the River requirement? Or is the action of my tapping my ranger not able to be responded to by another action?
Mordakai wrote: I don't really indestand the question. The example given by you is correct, if you tap the Ranger, it is already tapped when Adunaphel tries to tap him, so it is useless.
Ok, thanks. And if Adunaphel is declared first, I can respond by tapping my Ranger to fulfill the River requirement before Adunaphel's affect takes place and taps my Ranger, correct? So in both cases, the Ranger may tap to fulfill the River requirement and Adunaphel is useless in either scenario?
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Konrad Klar
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the Jabberwock wrote:So then this is true of any resource which does not tap the site, correct? It can be played after facing auto-attacks but before agent and on-guard creature attacks?
For any resource which normally does not tap the site when played, other than item, ally, faction. If particular item, ally, or faction normally does not tap a site when played, a company still must face eventual agent attack to be able to play it (for example Helm of Fear, and Creature of an Older World normally do not tap a site).
the Jabberwock wrote:4) If Mouth of Sauron is declared as a short event, can Cram be used in response to untap a sage, and then have the sage tap and play Marvel's Told to discard a permanent event, all before the Mouth of Sauron resolves?
the Jabberwock wrote:I am confused. Will you please walk me through a step by step sequence of actions and resolutions in the example I provided so that I can understand? Which items specifically do not resolve before the Mouth of Sauron resolves? Thanks.
Declarations:
1. Mouth of Sauron,
2. Using a Cram to untap sage bearer (Cram is discarded at this point).

Resolution:
2. Sage, former bearer of Cram, untaps.
1. Mouth of Sauron resolves. Player search for hazard in his discard pile and return it to his hand.

There is no possibility to declare Marvels Told using bearer of Cram. Bearer of Cram is not untapped at any point of declaration stage, so it cannot tap to play Marvels Told.
the Jabberwock wrote:[...] And if Adunaphel is declared first, I can respond by tapping my Ranger to fulfill the River requirement before Adunaphel's affect takes place and taps my Ranger, correct? So in both cases, the Ranger may tap to fulfill the River requirement and Adunaphel is useless in either scenario?
Yes. Untapped character may tap for some effect/action in response to Adunaphel as short-event that targets it. If at resolution of Adunaphel as short-event a target character will not be untapped then obviously Adunaphel as short-event will not tap it.
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Konrad Klar
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Konrad Klar wrote:[...] If particular item, ally, or faction normally does not tap a site when played, a company still must face eventual agent attack to be able to play it (for example Helm of Fear, and Creature of an Older World normally do not tap a site).
I'm sorry. I should write:
"If particular item, ally, or faction normally does not tap a site when played, a company still must face eventual agent attack and eventual on-guard creature attack to be able to play it (for example Helm of Fear, and Creature of an Older World normally do not tap a site)."

I've underlined the part of text omitted in my previous post.
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the JabberwocK
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Konrad Klar wrote:
Konrad Klar wrote:[...] If particular item, ally, or faction normally does not tap a site when played, a company still must face eventual agent attack to be able to play it (for example Helm of Fear, and Creature of an Older World normally do not tap a site).
I'm sorry. I should write:
"If particular item, ally, or faction normally does not tap a site when played, a company still must face eventual agent attack and eventual on-guard creature attack to be able to play it (for example Helm of Fear, and Creature of an Older World normally do not tap a site)."
I've underlined the part of text omitted in my previous post.
Got it, thanks! So basically, it is a matter of timing. No matter what type of resource(s) you are playing at the site, you must FIRST face automatic-attacks, and THEN you may play any resources which do not require tapping of the site, and THEN you must face Agent and On-Guard creature attacks, and THEN you may play any resource(s) which require tapping of the site. Is this correct? The relevance here, is that you might be able to tap a character and play something on him before he faces Agent/On-Guard attacks. This could be important because he might be forced to tap to face the Agent/On-Guard attack, which would then prevent him from being able to tap and play the resource afterwards.
the Jabberwock wrote:4) If Mouth of Sauron is declared as a short event, can Cram be used in response to untap a sage, and then have the sage tap and play Marvel's Told to discard a permanent event, all before the Mouth of Sauron resolves?
the Jabberwock wrote:I am confused. Will you please walk me through a step by step sequence of actions and resolutions in the example I provided so that I can understand? Which items specifically do not resolve before the Mouth of Sauron resolves? Thanks.
Konrad Klar wrote: Declarations:
1. Mouth of Sauron,
2. Using a Cram to untap sage bearer (Cram is discarded at this point).

Resolution:
2. Sage, former bearer of Cram, untaps.
1. Mouth of Sauron resolves. Player search for hazard in his discard pile and return it to his hand.

There is no possibility to declare Marvels Told using bearer of Cram. Bearer of Cram is not untapped at any point of declaration stage, so it cannot tap to play Marvels Told.
Aha! This clarifies things, thank you! So all declarations must happen first before ANY resolutions take place. Then, once ANY single resolution takes place, ALL resolutions must take place before any new declaration is made. Do I have this right?

Additionally, is there any limit to the number of declarations that can be made in a chain of affects?
Konrad Klar wrote: Yes. Untapped character may tap for some effect/action in response to Adunaphel as short-event that targets it. If at resolution of Adunaphel as short-event a target character will not be untapped then obviously Adunaphel as short-event will not tap it.
Thanks for clarifying!

Below are some additional questions I have:

1) Are Ringwraith and Wizard interchangeable? I believe somewhere I read that they are (perhaps I'm mistaken), but a card such as Lure of Nature (Lidless Eye version) specifies non-Ringwraith but not non-Wizard. So you can still clearly play Lure of Nature on a Wizard, right? OR do you read "Ringwraith" to also mean "Wizard" and thus you can't play this card on a Wizard either? Sorry, perhaps I'm confusing a point I read about Havens and Darkhavens.

2) Can both starting minor items be played on the same character?

3) Lidless Eye rules book states: “Place up to 10 character cards in your play deck. Only one of each character card may be included.”
Shouldn't this read "only one of each unique character card may be included?"

4) Can you key creature cards during the M/H phase to the site a company is leaving? Or only to the site a company is traveling to, as well as regions they are traveling through?

5) How are hazard agents (My Precious and Lobelia Sackville-Baggins) different from other agents? These 2 agents cannot be used as characters in a minion deck, correct? Whereas all other agents can be? Are there any other differences between these 2 and other agents?

Many Thanks!!
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Konrad Klar
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the Jabberwock wrote:[...][ No matter what type of resource(s) you are playing at the site, you must FIRST face automatic-attacks, and THEN you may play any resources which do not require tapping of the site, and THEN you must face Agent and On-Guard creature attacks, and THEN you may play any resource(s) which require tapping of the site. Is this correct? The relevance here, is that you might be able to tap a character and play something on him before he faces Agent/On-Guard attacks. This could be important because he might be forced to tap to face the Agent/On-Guard attack, which would then prevent him from being able to tap and play the resource afterwards.
Almost correct.
While facing an automatic-attack a company is limited to actions that directly affect automatic-attack, or otherwise are allowed in strike sequence.
After facing all automatic-attacks that limitation does not apply.
Still in force is:
CRF, Turn Sequence, Site Phase, General wrote:Play of an ally, item, faction, or resource card which will normally tap the site must be
after the company resolves all automatic, agent and on-guard creature attacks.
That was discussed in this thread: except phenomenal Far Sight a resources do not require to tap a site. Some tap a site in result of playing them (they require an untapped site, tapping a site is one of their results), factions, items, allies generally require untapped site and the site is tapped when they are successfully played.
the Jabberwock wrote:[...] because he might be forced to tap to face the Agent/On-Guard attack [...]
A character does not tap to face an attack, or a strike. An untapped character taps after facing strike, unless player decide that character will take -3 to prowess against strike. Character that is tapped while facing strike has -1 to prowess against strike.
the Jabberwock wrote:Then, once ANY single resolution takes place, ALL resolutions must take place before any new declaration is made. Do I have this right?
Once a chain of effects starts resolving nothing may be declared in response to this chain of effects.
the Jabberwock wrote:1) Are Ringwraith and Wizard interchangeable?
A references to Ringwraith do not apply to Wizard and vice versa.
With some exceptions listed in Balrog manual a references to Ringwraith apply to Balrog.
the Jabberwock wrote:2) Can both starting minor items be played on the same character?
Both may be under control of the same character.
the Jabberwock wrote:3) Lidless Eye rules book states: “Place up to 10 character cards in your play deck. Only one of each character card may be included.”
Shouldn't this read "only one of each unique character card may be included?"
Neither that, nor:
Lidless Eye, Starter Rules, Getting Ready To Play wrote:3. Place one to six starting minion characters (no Ringwraiths, no minion agents from Dark Minions) face down in front of you. The combined mind attributes (see Mind) of these characters must be 20 or less. You and your opponent reveal your characters simultaneously, placing any duplicated characters into your play decks. Then organize your starting characters into followers and companies and place them at Minas Morgul (i.e., place a Minas Morgul site card next to them).
was updated to reflect existence of non-unique characters.
Good catch :!:
the Jabberwock wrote:4) Can you key creature cards during the M/H phase to the site a company is leaving? Or only to the site a company is traveling to, as well as regions they are traveling through?
Creatures may be keyed only to current site, new site, company's site path, named regions through which a company is moving.
5) How are hazard agents (My Precious and Lobelia Sackville-Baggins) different from other agents? These 2 agents cannot be used as characters in a minion deck, correct? Whereas all other agents can be? Are there any other differences between these 2 and other agents?
The two agents may not be played as characters. They also cannot not be used for purpose of effects that refer to a character in play deck, sideboard, discard pile, or in hand.
The two agents are not minion agents, so cannot count as characters for purpose of constructing deck.
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Bandobras Took
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As an addendum to the above: Rules for Wizard players are not always the same as rules for Ringwraith players -- rules that do not apply to Wizard players are denoted by the bulleted sidebar in the MELE rules (this can be crucial to understand for FW play).
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