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Framsburg (Hero site)

Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:01 pm
by Sam.Gamdschie
Regarding the automatic attacks the hero site of Framsburg reads as follows:
... It must normally be playable keyed to a Ruins & Lairs [-me_rl-], Shadow-hold [-me_sh-], single Wilderness [-me_wi-], or Shadow-land [-me_sl-].
As it was discussed if a Wild Fell Beast could be played as such AA, but the majority is not convinced of that.
So I want to issue the following erratum to this text as follows:
... It must normally be playable keyed to a Ruins & Lairs [-me_rl-], a Shadow-hold [-me_sh-], a single Wilderness [-me_wi-], or a single Shadow-land [-me_sl-].
Be side that, also a discussion is going on, what "normally" means for AAs: https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewt ... 145&t=3658

Re: Framsburg (Hero site)

Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:55 pm
by Shapeshifter
I support this erratum (it is an erratum as I see it). Compare to the clarification on Elven Cloak:
Elven Cloak
Can cancel a strike keyed to one, two or more Wilderness.
Edit 2019-03-26: Rewrote my post because what I wrote here yesterday was partially nonsense.

Re: Framsburg (Hero site)

Posted: Sun May 12, 2019 6:04 am
by rezwits

Re: Framsburg (Hero site)

Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:03 pm
by CDavis7M
Perhaps this card should receive a clarification conditioned upon the other vote. And any other affected cards. Simply so that a player trying to play Fell Beast at Framsburg can easily lookup any updated listing of CoE ruleing when browsing for Framsburg.

Re: Framsburg (Hero site)

Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:30 pm
by dirhaval
Can Withered Hearth change the SIngle Wilderness symbol on Framsburg to double Wilderness or the Single Shadow-land to Double-Wilderness so to play Trolls from the Mountains? I would allow my opponent to do that with that creativity flowing from the icy streams of the Iron Mountains.

Re: Framsburg (Hero site)

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:18 am
by Theo
Do you mean Withered Lands on the automatic attack Wilderness? No. There is no way to legally target that symbol, since it only occurs when the automatic attack is resolved.

Re: Framsburg (Hero site)

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:19 pm
by CDavis7M
The simple answer: No, because Withered Lands targets Region Types and the [-me_wi-] symbol in the card text of Framsburg is not a Region Type itself, just a reference to Region Types on creatures (see MELE p.26 and the color insert).

Re: Framsburg (Hero site)

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:22 pm
by Bandobras Took
CDavis7M wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:19 pm
The simple answer: No, because Withered Lands targets Region Types and the [-me_wi-] symbol in the card text of Framsburg is not a Region Type itself, just a reference to Region Types on creatures (see MELE p.26 and the color insert).
Agreed. And very well put.

Re: Framsburg (Hero site)

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:26 pm
by dirhaval
Good points. Withered Lands not Withered Hearth; reading that Dragon submission confused me. I was told not to leave a live dragon out of the plans if you live near one.

Re: Framsburg (Hero site)

Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:30 am
by CDavis7M
Shapeshifter wrote:I support this erratum (it is an erratum as I see it). Compare to the clarification on Elven Cloak:
Elven Cloak
Can cancel a strike keyed to one, two or more Wilderness.
Edit 2019-03-26: Rewrote my post because what I wrote here yesterday was partially nonsense.
Funny about Elven Cloak. I get why the statement about multiple symbols was made.

But for creatures, it seems like most (all?) of the "deep wilderness" creatures, and even Wild Fell Beast, actually include a separate limitation in the card text requiring multiple region type in the site path.

So, my thought is that you technically still key the creature to one region type, but that two symbols in the site path are also required.

Meaning, Elven Cloak could cancel Winged Cold Drake but Wild Fell Beast could not be an automatic attack at Framsburg (it cannot be played because 2 Shadow-lands in the site path are required").

Update: I think this was true in METW and METD, but then in MELE rules were added for keying to multiple region types. And the MELE double region type creatures (Giant Spiders, Non-Spider Giants, etc.) lost the site path requirement in their text.

Also, Wild Fell Beast says: "Two Shadow-lands in site path are required." So at least its own text would prevent it from being played as an Automatic Attack at Framsburg.