WITHDRAWN - Standard Modifications (overhaul)

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2019 ARV should be posted here.
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Bandobras Took
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CDavis7M wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:50 pm"Intent"? There is no issue of intent being unclear here.
That's the kind of statement of ICE intent we need
Why are you arguing when there's no argument?
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Bandobras Took
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CDavis7M wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:46 pmAnd what part of the rules actually make an Orc or Troll minion character lose their minion status?
MELE wrote:Minion: A character controlled by a Ringwraith player.
Quit being stupid. There is no innate "minion" status.

There is an innate minion card type.
MELE wrote:Non-Ringwraith minion cards have a rusted-purplish iron background. Each Ringwraith minion card has a blood-red stone background.
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Konrad Klar
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Bandobras Took wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:15 pm All of your non-Orc/Troll characters are considered to be hero characters.

So that rules out non-Orc/Trolls, and

Corruption checks for an Orc or Troll character are handled as if he were a minion character.

The above statement is impossible if FW Orc/Trolls are minions.

The conclusion is that "hero and minion characters" refers to card types for deck construction.

If there's any doubt, the Balrog Rules Summary should help:

Characters in Wizard decks are called heroes, and characters in Ringwraith decks are called minions.
White Hand wrote:You may use both hero and minion characters. However, you may only use a
character if his mind attribute is 5 or less. All of your non-Orc/Troll characters are
considered to be hero characters. You may only use up to two of each non-unique
character.
How is it possible to use both hero and minion characters AND have in play and in deck only hero characters IF All of your non-Orc/Troll characters are considered to be hero characters?
Corruption checks for an Orc or Troll character are handled as if he were a minion character.
is not impossible if FW Orc/Trolls are minions. Is redundant in such case.
White Hand wrote:All of your non-Orc and non-Troll characters are considered to be hero characters.
Thus, a company consisting of only such characters is treated as a hero company.
Such a company is covert for the purposes of playing minion resources.
It is not impossible that a hero company is covert for other purposes.
If it would be impossible then such company would face AAs that are detainment against covert company as not detainment.
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CDavis7M
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It's just very surprising how poorly you read the rules after reading them so many times. It's like a person who has parked a car 15,863 times but can't stay in the lines.

This lack of reading comprehension just calls into question every rationale and response you've ever given.

The rules are clear in MEWH and in Using MELE with METW.

Sorry your ego is hurt.
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Bandobras Took
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How is it possible to use both hero and minion characters AND have in play and in deck only hero characters IF All of your non-Orc/Troll characters are considered to be hero characters?
Card type is not the same thing as card status.

A minion agent is always a minion agent card. A minion agent in play as a character is not an agent, though its card type remains that of a minion agent for deck construction purposes.

@ CDavis7M:

And the next time you ask for rules about minion characters instead of minion status, the rules you quote will have relevance.

If it is a question of defining who is or is not a minion, the definition of a minion is the way to go. A minion card is not always a minion. If it were possible for a RW to control a hero character card, that character would not be a hero; it would be a minion.

I tell you to quit being stupid because you're clearly very intelligent, and not bothering to use it in this discussion.

Here, I'll give you a summary for future debates:

Me: MELE rules state X.
You: X can be interpreted differently.
Me: Except the Balrog rules clarify X.
You: Published rules sources from ICE don't count, and earlier ones invalidate later ones, and rules that aren't written supersede rules that are written.

When we get an indication of ICE intent, the proper approach is not to pretend the rules say something they don't. The proper approach is to amend the rules.

Based on the foregoing, I'd be all in favor of repealing the erratum that makes FW Orc/Troll companies minion (since ICE by that statement absolutely did not intend them to be) and replacing it with one that makes FW Orc/Troll *characters* minion.

What I will not do is pretend the rules currently say that FW characters are minion.
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CDavis7M
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For the author - the rulesbook is not a series of strict allowances and restrictions (known as "rules."). Instead, it is a document that describes the game and and it provides the relevant rules with explanation. But not every statement is strictly a "rule." The document was written for people unfamiliar with card games, not a computer. You can see this from the text, the organization and structure, and the language used.

----

My interpretation: MEWH acknowledges that minion characters exist and it says that you may use them. MEWH says to refer to the MELE rules for wizards. Those rules indicate which characters are minion characters. The MEWH rules change non-Orcs and non-Trolls to be considered as hero characters. The MEWH rules say nothing about changing the character status of Orcs and Trolls, so they remain minions.

For your interpretation, you quote a statement from the MELE Glossary:
Minion: A character controlled by a Ringwraith player.
The glossary entry in full---
Minion:A character controlled by a Ringwraith player. Non-Ringwraith minion cards have a rusted purplish iron backkground. Each Ringwraith minion card has a blood-red stone background. Minions are the only characters included in MELE.
This is not a "rule." It is a description. Minions are the only characters included in MELE. Ringwraith players play minion characters. This is just how MELE works. But this general description of MELE cards is NOT a rule to restrict Fallen Wizards, which are not contemplated by the MELE rules.

And even if we take the stance that "Minion: A character controlled by a Ringwraith player" is actually a rule (instead of a simple decscription), then it is surely overridden by MEHW's statement on "Characters -- You may use both here and minion characters."

-------------

Anyway, here is my reasoning explained step by step. I start with the relevant rules sections, and then when those rules reference other sections of the rules, I go and read them. I don't Ctrl+F my way through the document. The rulesbook was not written to be read that way. It was written to be read as a reference booklet. And that's how I read it.

Image

If the MELE Standard Rules or the Using MELE with METW section said anything about standard modifications not applying when your opponent is a Wizard, then I would consider those rules.

But I cannot just make up rules by pulling snippets of text from other documents and treat them as limitations on the current situation when the actual rules themselves for the current situation do not refer to those sections. The rules for influencing an opponent's resource don't tell you to look at the Starter Rules for playing factions or the rules for Standard Modifications, and it doesn't tell you to read them as limitations. The Standard Rules on Influence expand upon the Starter Rules on Influence, but the starter rules don't act limitations unless they explicitly say so. Sure, those sections explain how factions and standard modifications work, but I don't read them as imposing restrictions or allowances of this procedure in the Standard Rules. Especially when the actual rules for influencing an opponent's faction are so clear "as given on the faction's card." Meaning, as given on the hero faction's card even though it is a hero faction and it lists modifications based on race.

I'm just reading the rules, following what they say to do, reviewing the sections they call out, and taking it at face value without over-complicating things.


If I have made a mistake in following the rules, please point it out. From what I have read, nothing in the rules for influencing an opponent's character tells the reader that the Starter rules for playing factions limits a Ringwraith character's modifications when influencing an opponent's faction.

The rulesbook doesn't tell the reader to interpret "Ringwraith only rules" as NEVER allowing a Ringwraith player's character to follow the Standard Rules ("as given on the faction's card") for influencing an opponent's character. Just because the Standard Modifications as given on the faction's card reference the Race of the characters doesn't mean that the Standard Rules don't apply. And, there is every indication that "applicable" modifications refers to modifications matching the cards in play and there is no indication that "application" modifications refer to alignment differences.
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Konrad Klar
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Bandobras Took wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:30 pm How is it possible to use both hero and minion characters AND have in play and in deck only hero characters IF All of your non-Orc/Troll characters are considered to be hero characters?

Card type is not the same thing as card status.

A minion agent is always a minion agent card. A minion agent in play as a character is not an agent, though its card type remains that of a minion agent for deck construction purposes.
I just ask about such combination of references to alignment of character cards and references to alignment of characters, where the three conditions could be reconciled.
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Bandobras Took
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This is not a "rule." It is a description.
It's neither. It's a definition.
GLOSSARY
The following list provides a definition of the most common game terms. In many cases, the most pertinent rules associated with each term are also given.
And even if we take the stance that "Minion: A character controlled by a Ringwraith player" is actually a rule (instead of a simple decscription), then it is surely overridden by MEHW's statement on "Characters -- You may use both here and minion characters."
Here, I'll give you a summary for future debates:

Me: MELE rules state X.
You: X can be interpreted differently.
Me: Except the Balrog rules clarify X.
You: Published rules sources from ICE don't count, and earlier ones invalidate later ones, and rules that aren't written supersede rules that are written.
Since you said your part, I'll say mine:
Characters in Wizard Decks are called heroes, and characters in Ringwraith decks are called minions.
Now, on to other matters:
The rules for influencing an opponent's resource don't tell you to look at the Starter Rules for playing factions or the rules for Standard Modifications
Influencing an Opponent's Faction
To influence an opponent's faction, you must make an influence check as outlined above. However, the following exceptions apply:
· Instead of a mind attribute, the influence check uses the value usually required to bring the faction into play (as given on the faction's card).
· The influence check is modified by any of the faction's applicable modifications (as given on the faction's card).
Oh, wait. It's the same matter:
The Standard Rules on Influence expand upon the Starter Rules on Influence, but the starter rules don't act limitations unless they explicitly say so. Sure, those sections explain how factions and standard modifications work, but I don't read them as imposing restrictions or allowances of this procedure in the Standard Rules.
Sounds an awful lot like
You: X can be interpreted differently.
To which I respond with:
Me: Except the Balrog rules clarify X.
any standard modifications for the character's race (heroes) or the other factions in play (minions)
Minions are defined. The definition is consistent from MELE to MEBA. Minion cards are defined. The definition is consistent from MELE to MEBA. The rules for Standard Modifications are defined. They are consistent from METW to MELE to MEBA, from the Starter Rules to the Standard Rules to the Summary, from playing one's own faction to influencing an opponents faction:

Not all standard modifications are applicable. If you are a wizard or a RW, an entire class of them is not applicable.

I believe this is the point at which you start explaining that MEBA doesn't count because it's a more recent publication than MELE and endorses all the things you claim aren't rules, but since I just said it, can't we skip it? :|

Incidentally, your flowchart is wrong. If a RW player's character attempt to influence a Wizard opponent's faction, 1) and 2) do not happen.

So, it's handled just as it is in METW and MELE. You forgot to highlight "applicable." You can't arrive at the conclusion that RWs use the racial-based modifiers without looking in the METW rulebook. Which Ringwraiths do not do.

Influence checks are handled as they are in METW and MELE because a Wizard influencing a RW opponent uses the METW rules for applicable standard modifications, while a RW influencing a Wizard opponent uses the MELE rules for applicable standard modifications. Lest there be any confusion that "in METW and MELE" means to combine the two,
Me: Except the Balrog rules clarify X.
@ Konrad:

I do not think it is possible to reconcile. Just as ICE often used "effect" and "action" without regard to precision, they did not always distinguish between card type and hero status. If we accept that simply having a purple background gives a character card minion status, then agents in play as hazards remain minions, and non-Orc/Troll characters in play by a FW remain minion, as well -- they're just also considered hero. That leads to conflicts in how to handle corruption checks for such characters, though.

Like I said, I would support an erratum to make FW Orcs/Trolls minions in play -- that seems to have been ICE's intention, given the above citation. They just didn't manage to write the rules that way.
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CDavis7M
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Bandobras Took wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:07 pm
The Standard Rules on Influence expand upon the Starter Rules on Influence, but the starter rules don't act limitations unless they explicitly say so. Sure, those sections explain how factions and standard modifications work, but I don't read them as imposing restrictions or allowances of this procedure in the Standard Rules.
Sounds an awful lot like
You: X can be interpreted differently.
To which I respond with:
Me: Except the Balrog rules clarify X.
any standard modifications for the character's race (heroes) or the other factions in play (minions)
I am not saying that "X can be interpreted differently." I'm saying that "there is no X." There is no "Rule X" indicating that the Starter Rules on Playing Factions and Standard Modifications act as a limitation on a Ringwraith influencing a Wizard's faction and using the modifications "as given on the faction's card."
Bandobras Took wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:07 pm Not all standard modifications are applicable. If you are a wizard or a RW, an entire class of them is not applicable.
There is no basis for this statement in the rules. This statement can only be derived by interpreting sections of the rules describing which standard modifications are applicable (e.g., matching factions in play) as preventing a player from ever using any other Standard Modification even if called for by the rules for Influencing an Opponent's Faction.
Bandobras Took wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:07 pm I believe this is the point at which you start explaining that MEBA doesn't count because it's a more recent publication than MELE and endorses all the things you claim aren't rules, but since I just said it, can't we skip it? :|
I take no such position. My position is that the MEBA statements on Playing Factions don't create or clarify the rules for a Ringwraith Influencing a Wizard Opponent's Resources.
Bandobras Took wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:07 pm Incidentally, your flowchart is wrong. If a RW player's character attempt to influence a Wizard opponent's faction, 1) and 2) do not happen.
When a normal player (not you) references their various Middle-Earth rulesbooks, 1) and 2) DO happen according to their text and depending on the alignment of the player and their opponent. When playing Ringwraith vs Ringwraith, and the players want to know the rules on influencing, they will open their MELE rulesbook to the Starter Rules on INFLUENCE, review those, and then move on to the Standard rules on INFLUENCE, and review those.

Some other players are Ctrl+F Wizards and above actually the rules.
Bandobras Took wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:07 pm So, it's handled just as it is in METW and MELE. You forgot to highlight "applicable." You can't arrive at the conclusion that RWs use the racial-based modifiers without looking in the METW rulebook. Which Ringwraiths do not do.
A Ringwraith player certainly CAN arrive at this conclusion by looking at the modifications "as given on the card." If the card says "Dúnedain (+1)" and the Ringwraith's character making the influence attempt is a Dúnedain, then how could the +1 possibly not apply? Is the Ringwraith player supposed to pretend that their character's card doesn't also say "Dúnedain" and that they don't know how to read the word "Dúnedain"?

And if so, then why would "Using MELE with METW" tell the player to use "Dúnedain (+1)" as given on the card? If the character was not a Dúnedain, then clearly the +1 modifications for "Dúnedain (+1)" would not be "applicable." As mentioned above, term "applicable" is used in both METW and MELE in the same manner. "Applicable" cannot possibly be referring to differences in alignment because alignment was not in issue in METW. The only thing that dictates whether the modification is "applicable" is whether the listed modification requirement is met (e.g., "Dúnedain").
Bandobras Took wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:07 pm If we accept that simply having a purple background gives a character card minion status, then agents in play as hazards remain minions
... An agent played "as a hazard" is a hazard agent, not a minion agent character. There is no way that accepting "simply having a purple background gives a character card minion status" requires an agent with a purple background to remain a minion if played as a hazard. This is clear from MEDM rules:
MEDM Rules insert wrote:MEDM includes minion cards – a new type of card with a new type of template – the background is iron with a “rusted” purple tint. In MEDM, minions are used as hazards called ‘agents’...
The concept of minions used in a non-agent fashion will be introduced in Middle-earth: The Lidless Eye (a stand-alone expansion due out in the Spring of 1997). In The Lidless Eye, minions will be used like characters, but each minion will be under the influence of one of Sauron’s Dark Lieutenants.
The background is purple, yet they are hazards, not characters.
Bandobras Took wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:07 pm Like I said, I would support an erratum to make FW Orcs/Trolls minions in play -- that seems to have been ICE's intention, given the above citation. They just didn't manage to write the rules that way.
:roll:
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CDavis7M
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Oh no. I'm sorry guys. My sincerest apologies to Mr. Took. I actually went and read the Balrog rules and they say exactly what he said they said. I'm so embarrassed. I will try harder to read next time.

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Konrad Klar
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Bandobras Took wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:07 pm @ Konrad:

I do not think it is possible to reconcile. Just as ICE often used "effect" and "action" without regard to precision, they did not always distinguish between card type and hero status. If we accept that simply having a purple background gives a character card minion status, then agents in play as hazards remain minions, and non-Orc/Troll characters in play by a FW remain minion, as well -- they're just also considered hero. That leads to conflicts in how to handle corruption checks for such characters, though.
How is it possible to use both hero and minion characters AND have in play and in deck only hero characters IF All of your non-Orc/Troll characters are considered to be hero characters?

Just try to insert "character card of type" and/or "have status" in appropriate places to make the ICE statements not contradicting each with others.
All of your non-Orc/Troll characters are considered to be hero characters.
does not say explicitly that FW player's Orc/Troll characters are considered to be minion characters.
It does not exclude such possibility too. It also does not exclude a possibility that they are considered to be hero characters.
But if not hero then what? Alignmentless?
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Bandobras Took
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We've already come to the conclusion that "use" is a lousy word.

https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewt ... =15#p32153
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Bandobras Took
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A Ringwraith player certainly CAN arrive at this conclusion by looking at the modifications "as given on the card." If the card says "Dúnedain (+1)" and the Ringwraith's character making the influence attempt is a Dúnedain, then how could the +1 possibly not apply? Is the Ringwraith player supposed to pretend that their character's card doesn't also say "Dúnedain" and that they don't know how to read the word "Dúnedain"?
No, a RW player would assume that if there are other Dunadan factions in play, they get a +1 for each.

Oh, dear.

Incidentally, your copy of the Balrog rules seems to differ from mine. Were multiple versions printed?
There is no "Rule X" indicating that the Starter Rules on Playing Factions and Standard Modifications act as a limitation on a Ringwraith influencing a Wizard's faction and using the modifications "as given on the faction's card."
There's a great big rule stating a limitation:
Unless stated otherwise, the Wizard player uses the METW rules and the Ringwraith player uses the MELE rules.
It is never stated that RW player uses METW rules for influencing.

All references to using METW and MELE (or MELE and METW) are expressing just that -- a Wizard player using METW rules and a RW player using MELE rules.
All characters and Wizards make corruption checks as outlined in the MELE and METW rules.
If we accept that RWs get to use METW rules and vice versa, then all hero characters get to tap when failing a corruption check by 1, and all minions get to be discarded.

There are no MELE rules that refers to the influencer's race, and RWs cannot, unless explicitly stated, use METW rules.
There is no basis for this statement in the rules.
See above. Ringwraiths cannot use METW rules without explicit permission, and their own rules say nothing about the race of the influencer.
rules describing which standard modifications are applicable
if called for by the rules for Influencing an Opponent's Faction
The rules for influencing an opponent's faction never call for inapplicable standard modifications, so that's okay.
When a normal player (not you) references their various Middle-Earth rulesbooks, 1) and 2) DO happen according to their text and depending on the alignment of the player and their opponent.
Example Situation: A Ringwraith player's character attempts to influence a Wizard opponent's faction.
Please at least bother to understand your own hypotheticals.
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CDavis7M
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Bandobras Took wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:25 pm Incidentally, your copy of the Balrog rules seems to differ from mine. Were multiple versions printed?
No. My entire post is made up.
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CDavis7M
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Bandobras Took wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:25 pm It is never stated that RW player uses METW rules for influencing.

All references to using METW and MELE (or MELE and METW) are expressing just that -- a Wizard player using METW rules and a RW player using MELE rules.
The author knows that most everyone playing MELE will understand how to interpret standard modifications on hero cards. The author knows that the reader understands what "Dúnedain (+1)" means from METW. The author knows that the Standard Rules in both METW and the Standard rules in MELE, say to use the modifications "as given on the faction's card." And the author knows that "Using MELE with METW" tells players in a Ringwraith v. Wizard game to use the modifications "as given" on the other alignment's faction card. Thus, the rules work because the author knows that the players will use the modifiers on the cards based on their experience playing METW.

How could the author have intended for a player to forget what "Dúnedain (+1)" means simply because it is in the METW book? If the author really didn't want Ringwraith vs. Wizard players to get modifiers "as given on the faction's card" the author would have written something about it in "Using MELE with METW." But the author did not.

The reader cannot follow the meticulous technicalities of your interpretation and it is clear that the author did not intended them to.
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