Twilight

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2019 ARV should be posted here.
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Konrad Klar
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Twilight. The Wizards Limited Edition version wrote:Environment. One environment card in play is immediately discarded. This card may also be played as a resource.. Upon the very Eve of Midsummer, when the sky was blue as sapphire and the white stars opened in the East, but the West was still golden, and the air was cool and fragrant, the riders came...to the Gates of Minas Tirith.-LotRVI
Twilight. The Wizards Unlimited Edition version wrote:Environment. One environment card in play is immediately discarded. This card may also be played as a resource. This card may be played at any time during any player's turn. Upon the very Eve of Midsummer, when the sky was blue as sapphire and the white stars opened in the East, but the West was still golden, and the air was cool and fragrant, the riders came...to the Gates of Minas Tirith.-LotRVI
CRF, Errata (Cards), Twilight wrote:Card Erratum: Add "This card may be played at any time during any player's turn."
Can target a card that has not yet resolved. Can be played as a resource during your
opponent's turn.
Twilight. Lidless Eye version wrote:Environment. One environment card (in play or declared earlier in the same chain of effects) is cancelled and discarded. Twilight may also be played as a resource, and may be played at any point during any player's turn. The sun dipped and vanished, and as if at the shuttering of a lamp, black night fell.-LotRII
There are at least* three version of the card. "Twilight. The Wizards Unlimited Edition version" is "Twilight. The Wizards Limited Edition version" with CRF errata applied.
Text of "Twilight. Lidless Eye version" states the it "may be played at any point" that beats any timing restrictions.

This gives the card the abilities without parallel to any other cards and that seems to be insane.
Existence of a version of a card that introduces a changes beyond errata is a problem too.

I propose the following erratum:

Regardless of edition from which the given version of Twilight comes, the text of Twilight (without citation) sounds:
"Environment. One environment card in play is immediately discarded. This card may also be played as a resource. This card may be played at any time during any player's turn."

Related thread:
https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewt ... =16&t=3619

*) I do not know the versions included in Challenge Decks, or in Balrog sets.
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the JabberwocK
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What exactly would be changing in terms of gameplay with your proposal?

Are you saying there is a notable difference between "played at any point" and "played at any time"?
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Konrad Klar
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Yes, "[may be] played at any point" is more permissive.
Where normally nothing could be played at given point of game (e.g. in middle of resolving chain of effects) a card that "[may be] played at any point" could be played.
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CDavis7M
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Even if played as such, it's not clear to me that doing so would actually affect the outcome.

I also haven't heard of anyone playing twilight "at any point" in that way.
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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:47 pm I also haven't heard of anyone playing twilight "at any point" in that way.
It does not matter. Any inventive method of playing (including that that exploits some language glitches) is unheard, when first presented.
CDavis7M wrote: Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:47 pm Even if played as such, it's not clear to me that doing so would actually affect the outcome.
Search for "at this point" in CRF, or in MELE manual.
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CDavis7M
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The phrase "at this point" is used a handful of times in the CFR and the MELE rules. It is used according to it's colloquial meaning, similar to the terms "afterwords" or "then."

There is no implication that Twilight was intended to override the Timing Rules. Or did I miss something?

My understanding is that Twilight could not be declared after Mouth of Sauron is resolved but before other declared cards are resolved. If anything, attempting to play Twilight as such would not be affecting "One environment card (in play or declared earlier in the same chain of effects)" as the previous Twilight would neither be in play nor in the same chain as the new twilight. That is, even if the 2nd Twilight could be declared within the resolution of the chain of effects of the 1st Twilight, it would not be within the SAME chain since it was not declared in that chain.
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Konrad Klar
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Annotation 27 : If a card has optional effects, the player playing the card must choose
which will take place. He must do this at the time the card is played, not when it is
resolved in its chain of effects. When such a card is resolved, if any active conditions
for the choice of effects do not exist, the card has no effect and is discarded. The
player may not at this point choose to implement an alternative effect of the card.
Underline mine.
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CDavis7M
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I don't see how this annotation regarding optional effect is relevant to Twilight. And I don't see how the use of the term "at this point" here provides any illumination of it's use in Twilight.

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the JabberwocK
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I also am still not really following along here....

You are proposing changing this language:
"may be played at any point"
to this language:
"may be played at any time"
You are using this language change as a hypothetical nerf to the card allowing a player to interrupt a chain of effects resolving, because you feel that is too powerful, is that correct?

Additionally, unless "at any point" is clearly defined somewhere, I don't see how one can infer it is somehow any different than "at any time."
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CDavis7M
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The original post states:

Text of "Twilight. Lidless Eye version" states the it "may be played at any point" that beats any timing restrictions."

It assumes that "at any point" is superior to the other versions of Twilight in that it can interrupt and be played during resolution of a chain of effects.

First, I disagree with this interpretation because there is no support in the rules for such functionality. I interpret the different versions to have the same meaning.

Second, even IF "at any point" did allow LE version of Twilight to interrupt resolution of a chain of effects, it WOULD NOT provide any additional game play benefits for the reasons I started above (ie there would not be any cards "in the same chain of effects" since Twilight would have its own separate chain if it was declared during resolution of another chain).

And third, the proposal is completely bunk because it does not even discuss "most recent English printing", which is the actual text to be followed according to the Tournament rules.
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