Re: Thrall of the Voice: multiple on character clarification
Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:44 pm
Not to discard it, no, which is what you "may" do.
MECCG Discussion Forum
https://www.councilofelrond.org/forum/
https://www.councilofelrond.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=3616
Unfortunately, the above argument is just not based on the mechanics of the game.Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:36 pm Using one Thrall to bring the character into play does not necessarily preclude using the others to bring that character into play. All three Thralls allow you to bring in an alternate character according to specific criteria. If you do so, place Thrall with the character.
This is not an accurate reflection of my statements above.Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:37 pm As you mentioned above, Thrall's wording does not create three separate abilities to bring characters into play. It enables one option, which, when used, requires that Thrall be placed with the character.
Correct.Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:37 pm you place Thrall with the character that was played.
There is no basis in the card text or the rules for this conclusion. The game provides Passive Conditions as the mechanism for taking actions based on other actions. If playing a character was the trigger for the Thrall-placing action, then the placing action would establish the passive condition. But it does not.Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:37 pm [Thrall's wording] enables one [character playing] option, which, when used, requires that Thrall be placed with the character.
Therefore, all three copies get placed with whichever character was played using Thrall's ability.
The game provides Passive Conditions as the mechanism for taking actions based on other actions. If playing a character was the trigger for the Thrall-placing action, then the placing action would establish the passive condition.
The action is character play according to Thrall's limitations. The triggered action is placing.Condition, Passive: An action that causes another action to take effect. The triggered action will be the first declared action in the chain of effects immediately following the chain of effects that contained the passive condition.
But there is no connection between the placing action and the character-playing action. They are completely separate actions and one just follows the other. "Instead of a normal character, during your organization phase you may bring into play one character (including a minion agent) with up to a 6 mind. Place this card with the character." There is no term (e.g., "when ___," "if ___", "each ___," "all ___," etc.) in the card text to define a later action that will trigger the placing action.Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:57 pm
The action is character play according to Thrall's limitations. The triggered action is placing.
Playing a character establishes that a passive condition (placing Thrall) is triggered. Since the character is in play and continues to remain in play, the passive condition of placing Thrall with the character then is declared as the first action in a chain of effects immediately following the chain that resulted in the character play. And does so for each copy of Thrall you have in play, since the passive condition (character play) triggered all three placing actions.
Still, no passive condition is created or needed for Thrall because when Thrall is played the Thrall-placing action and character-playing action are immediately declared and they will resolve one after the other. So the character for the Thrall to be placed on is already established by the playing action.MELE wrote:Condition, Passive: An action (1st action) that causes another action (2nd action) to take effect.
The action of discarding a stored reforging is the active condition for placing Andúril with Narsil.Anduril wrote:...Once stored, you may discard a stored reforging and place Andúril, the Flame of the West with Narsil...
The action of playing the Wizard is the passive condition for placing Sacrifice of Form with the Wizard.Sacrifice of Form" wrote:...If the Wizard is put back into play, return his items to him and place Sacrifice of Form with him...
The action that ends a Nazgul attack (e.g., placing the Nazgul in your discard, out-of-play, or MP pile) is the passive condition for placing Helm with Eowyn.Helm of her Secrecy wrote:...If the attack is a Nazgûl, place Helm of Her secrecy with Éowyn following the attack...
The action of tapping of the bearer is the active condition for placing Map to Mithril with the weapon.Map to Mithril wrote:...If Map to Mithril is at a Dwarf-hold and it is tapped, the bearer may tap himself and place this card with a non-unique weapon in his company...
The action of playing your Ringwraith is the passive condition for the action of placing Bade to Rule with the Ringwraith.Bade to Rule wrote:...Place this card with your Ringwraith when he comes into play...
Ready to his Will wrote:Place this card with the creature.
Just like Thrall:Remnants of Old Robberies wrote:Place this card with the attackʹs card.
Thrall of the Voice wrote:Place this card with the character.
This was already proven false.Still, no passive condition is created or needed for Thrall because when Thrall is played the Thrall-placing action and character-playing action are immediately declared and they will resolve one after the other. So the character for the Thrall to be placed on is already established by the playing action.
It was not. No passive condition is created for placing Thrall. Even if Thrall is played and the character-playing action may be taken later, that would not allow the placing action of duplicate copies of Thrall to trigger such that multiple copies can be played on the same character.Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:43 pmThis was already proven false.Still, no passive condition is created or needed for Thrall because when Thrall is played the Thrall-placing action and character-playing action are immediately declared and they will resolve one after the other. So the character for the Thrall to be placed on is already established by the playing action.
And now say:Thrall states "Place this card with the character." There is antecedent for "the" character. The antecedent is the "one character with up to a 6 mind" which "you may bring into play."
Either the two sentences are connected by the antecedent, in which case play of the character is the passive condition that triggers the placing action, or else the two sentences have no connection, in which case Thrall may be placed whichever character I decide is "the character."But there is no connection between the placing action and the character-playing action. They are completely separate actions and one just follows the other.
Most of the cards in that list provide some active condition or passive conditions to enable the effect later.Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:39 pm You misunderstand. The idea that you have to declare an action that a card says you "may" take when you play the card is false. The card gives you the capacity to declare that action whenever you choose, within its own guidelines.
As a refresher:
https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewt ... =15#p32874
You are missing the context of these 2 statements. The placing action has antecedent in the playing action (e.g., the played character). But the placing action lacks a triggering connection to the character-playing action.Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:39 pmAnd now say:Thrall states "Place this card with the character." There is antecedent for "the" character. The antecedent is the "one character with up to a 6 mind" which "you may bring into play."
Either the two sentences are connected by the antecedent, in which case play of the character is the passive condition that triggers the placing action, or else the two sentences have no connection, in which case Thrall may be placed whichever character I decide is "the character."But there is no connection between the placing action and the character-playing action. They are completely separate actions and one just follows the other.
But they do create a precedent. Therefore, we include Thrall among this group.There are a handful of other cards that also let the player take some action without an active or passive condition, but they are the exceptions and do not create a rule.
What constitutes a "triggering connection?"You are missing the context of these 2 statements. The placing action has antecedent in the playing action (e.g., the played character). But the placing action lacks a triggering connection to the character-playing action.
CRF, Ready To His Will wrote:Note that cards like Rank Upon Rank are applied as a passive condition, once an attack of the right type is in play.
ICE stated that this is applied as a passive condition, but there's nothing remotely constituting a triggering connection, so far as I can tell.All non-agent Man attacks receive +1 prowess and +1 strikes.
But these cards aren't similar to Thrall. Unlike Thrall, they only have a single action that would be performed "at whim." And so they could easily fit the tapping-active-condition paradigm (e.g., Tap Rumour of Rings during your organization phase to take one ring special item...). Many cards use this paradigm: the Dwarven rings, Saruman, all of the Fallen-Wizard Stage Cards, etc.Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:29 amBut they do create a precedent. Therefore, we include Thrall among this group.There are a handful of other cards that also let the player take some action without an active or passive condition, but they are the exceptions and do not create a rule.
Anything that happens later (except for those handful of exceptional cards) requires some active condition or passive condition as the trigger for the other action to happen.Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:29 amWhat constitutes a "triggering connection?"You are missing the context of these 2 statements. The placing action has antecedent in the playing action (e.g., the played character). But the placing action lacks a triggering connection to the character-playing action.
CRF, Ready To His Will wrote:Note that cards like Rank Upon Rank are applied as a passive condition, once an attack of the right type is in play.ICE stated that this is applied as a passive condition, but there's nothing remotely constituting a triggering connection, so far as I can tell.All non-agent Man attacks receive +1 prowess and +1 strikes.
Establishing a passive condition requires a printed triggering connection. Otherwise you would just have players making stuff up.Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:47 pm So there doesn't need to be a printed triggering connection after all, it seems.
A card may supply the possibility of an action that triggers its own passive condition, in which case, Thrall only has a single action that may be performed at will.
That is not necessarily true. Open to the Summons (A) may be played during the game or (B) "may be played with a starting company in lieu of a minor item." Given these two possibilities, it is both possible for (A) duplicate copies of Open to the Summons to not be able to be placed on a character brought into play during the game (if that character was not played by OttS's effect) and (B) have the requirement of "cannot be duplicated on a given character."Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:14 am Open to the Summons contains the phrase "Cannot be duplicated on given character.".
That would not be needed if agent character would be played in result of Open to the Summons (i.e. when the card resolves).
The phrase make sense if there are multiple copies of Open to the Summons on company and agent character is played later.
Open to the Summons wrote:Playable on a company. One agent minion may be played with target company at a Darkhaven -- place this card with the agent. -1 to his mind to a minimum of 1. This card may be played with a starting company in lieu of a minor item. When played as such, reveal it when starting companies are determined as if it were a character. Cannot be duplicated on a given character.
The character draft and other setup activities performed as part of "Getting Ready to Play" do not follow the normal rules of the game for playing characters and playing minor items, etc.Thrall of the Voice wrote:Instead of a normal character, during your organization phase you may bring into play one character (including a minion agent) with up to a 6 mind. Place this card with the character. -1 to his mind to a minimum of 1. Such a character may also be in your starting company.